[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♣    Pass  1♥
 Pass  1NT   Pass  2♦
 Pass  3♦    Pass  3♥
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  


this is how I bid it, comments on that please and also how do you bid it in your favorite system

2 D was game force NMF

[coyot]

Our system:
1♦-1♥ - (better minor - F1 )
2♣-2♠ - 5-4 or 4441 - GF
2NT-3♥ - stopper - 6card or good 5card.
3NT - pass (no interest, denies doubleton honor in hearts).

What does 1♣ opener mean in your system? highly strange with 5 diamonds...

[mike777]

1nt=2d
2h=4h
p

1nt=14-16
2h=deny super accept... I play you need more than 1trump to superaccept .
4h=mild slam try. ( 6 loser hand across from a 14-16 nt opener and no super accept).

[luke warm]

1♦ : 1♥
2♣ : 2♠ (4sf)
2NT : 3♥
3NT

probably how it'd go in 2/1... in weiss

1♦ : 1NT (10+, <4 diamonds)
2NT* : 3♥
3NT

*=5/4 minors, 15-17

[hrothgar]

mike777, on Aug 10 2005, 01:31 AM, said:

1nt=2d
2h=4h
p

1nt=14-16
2h=deny super accept... I play you need more than 1trump to superaccept .
4h=mild slam try. ( 6 loser hand across from a 14-16 nt opener and no super accept).

Agree with Mikes auction...

Hand strikes me as slightly too strong to open 1♦ and rebid in clubs...

[the hog]

Agree with Jimmy's auction.

[Gerben42]

Comment 1: 1♣? Did I miscount or does this hand have more ♦s than ♣?
Comment 2: 1NT? With a singleton major you are begging for a Burn's Law violation.

1♦ (showing 4 cards for me but doesn't make a difference on the hand)
- 1♥ (shows hearts )
2♣ (why distort when you can show your hand honestly?)
- 3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)
3NT (promise ♠ stopper)
- Pass (tada!)

[mikeh]

If you open 1N with this hand, please alert! You can do this once, but after that you and your partner have a deemed understanding and the opps should be told that 1N does not deny a singleton.

This is an easy hand in any standard method:

1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♠
2N 3♥
3♠ 3N

2♣ shows 5-4 or better, in the minors and does not deny a powerful hand: this is nowhere near a maximum for the sequence.

2♠ is fourth suit, gf

2N is natural, but may be based on 2=2=5=4 with say Kx xx Axxxx KQxx

3♥ forces to game and shows 6+♥

3♠ shows doubt about 3N: usually only one ♠ stopper, or some other reason to suspect that 3N may not be best... here it is the combination of the ♥A, the solitary ♠ stopper and the slight extra values.

3N shows ♠ are under control, and that responder is not strong enough to mount a slam try on this misfit sequence. Do not ignore the 'misfit' issue: the South hand is not as strong as it looks, once opener shows a moderate hand with the minors and no ♥ fit.

Yes, I know that slam makes on the hand, but it is a bad contract. If your problem is 'how to get to slam', you are going to be a bad bidder:) You should be happy to stay in game.

[EricK]

Is 6♦ a bad contract? Certainly not the worst slam I've ever got to!

Not sure I would get to it though.

1♦ 1♥
2♣ 2♠
2NT 3♥
3NT(or 4♥) P

looks normal.

But the totally natural Stone Age Acol auction:

1♦ 2♥
3♣ 3NT
4NT 6♦

looks kinda believable.

Eric

[pbleighton]

"If you open 1N with this hand, please alert! You can do this once, but after that you and your partner have a deemed understanding and the opps should be told that 1N does not deny a singleton."

Untrue. You only alert if you have a method to find out whether pd opened with a singleton, or if you routinely open with a singleton. Opening with a singleton ace doesn't constitute "routinely".

Peter

[han]

Gerben42, on Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

[mike777]

luke warm, on Aug 9 2005, 06:20 PM, said:

.. in weiss

1♦ : 1NT (10+, <4 diamonds)
2NT* : 3♥
3NT

*=5/4 minors, 15-17

Harder in Weiss, I will think more about a diamond slam try.
2nt=14-17 and 5 d and 4-5 clubs.

Now I may rebid 3H and over 3nt I can pass or bid 4d slam try.
Or, over 2nt I can bid 3D game force.

In general Weiss is not enamored of 5-3 slam fits so I may just give up and play 3nt but this is one more example where judgement really slaps you in the face when playing Weiss.

At imps I may be tempted to make a D slam try, perhaps at MP just give up and play 3nt.

edit, yes alert 1nt opening since it is often offshape, agree, but a stiff is rare.

[mike777]

Hannie, on Aug 9 2005, 07:35 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

ya it does sound confusing.

what do you bid with:
6hcp and 6hearts?
8 hcp and 6 hearts?
11 hcp and 6 hearts?

if 1d=2h =0-5
and
1d=1h
2c=2h=invite

what the heck do you do with more than 5hcp but less than invite hcp?

I can only guess you go through fourth suit forcing with 6 hearts and invite hand in hearts and rebid 2h with less than invite?
so 1d=1h=2c=2s=3c=3h=invite but 1d=1h=2c=3h=game force?

[EricK]

Hannie, on Aug 10 2005, 12:35 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

Eric

[mike777]

EricK, on Aug 9 2005, 09:58 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 10 2005, 12:35 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

Eric

that cannot be expert european bidding...that makes 1d=2h too wide a range. zero to almost invite.

[sceptic]

I thought slam was bad to bid even if it makes, just curious how you would bid it

[coyot]

No, the idea is as follows:

1m-2M weak jump shift. I play it as 6-7card, 2-5 HCP.
(Partner usually passes even with 18-19 balanced, only a hand with good support and a shortness bids something)

1m-1M-rebid-2M - very nonforcing 6card (usually up to 9 HCP)

1m-1M-rebid-3M - almost GF. (Partner passes only with extremely unsuitable hand - minimum, singleton trump)

1m-1M-rebid-GF or a new forcing suit-rebid-3M - natural...

The last two variants can be merged together as GF, but I've been grateful a few times for having an invitational hand that specifically says "partner, if your hand is good, I want to play in my major, but if it is bad, 3NT is not a good idea".

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on Aug 9 2005, 10:37 PM, said:

EricK, on Aug 9 2005, 09:58 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 10 2005, 12:35 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Aug 9 2005, 07:06 PM, said:

3♥ (GF as 1♦ - 2♥ shows a WJS)

Can some European player please explain the logic behind this. I see it over and over again and I don't understand.

I think the idea is that with hands which would normally reply 1♥ and rebid 2♥ you bid 2♥ straightaway. Then with hands which are stronger but not GF you actually do bid 1♥ and rebid 2♥. And with GF hands you bid 1♥ and then 3♥.

Eric

that cannot be expert european bidding...that makes 1d=2h too wide a range. zero to almost invite.

Hi,

Both meanings are around, I disscussed it, with two players,
who played once or twice at internation events, one said
inv., the other said force.

For what its worth:
1) The classic meaning for 3H is game force, just ask
Alvin Roth.
2) It depends a lot upon your partnership aggreements:
How weak, can the weak jumb shift be.
Is it 4/5-7/8 or 2-6 (*).
If it is 4/5-7/8, than 3H will show something around 12+,
i.e. it gets forcing, if it shows 2-6, 3H is still inv.

With kind regards
Marlowe

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts have a higher
frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the
weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the
mathematics.

[helene_t]

P_Marlowe, on Aug 10 2005, 10:36 AM, said:

(*) People, who claim that the weak jumb shifts  have a higher
frequency than the strong jumb shifts and also play, that the
weak jumb shift shows the range 2-6, have no clue about the
mathematics.

Depends how you define your strong jump shifts. Dutch beginners learn 12+ with a decent 6-card. That's quite frequent. My English beginner's book define it as 16+ and a suit playable opposite a void. That's different. Don't think it has much to do with mathematics, btw. I'm a mathematician and I would not volunteer to write a formula for such probabilities. I would rather make simulations or analysis of tournament records.

Anyway, the idea is that with a 6-card major you bid something like this (feel free to adjust one or two points if you like):
0-2: Pass
3-7: Jump immediately
8-11: Bid and rebid
12+: Bid and jump rebid

Some play 3-7 and 8-11 reversed. You could also play New Suit Invitational (similar to Pavlicek's method): The limit hands (9-11) goes via a relay. Weak hands bid and rebid, GF hands bid and jump rebid.

I didn't know this was called European style. Learned something new today.

[Gerben42]

Well explained, Helene. I didn't know it was called European style either. Anyway around here either this or reverse F responses are played for 1m - 2M.

Why should you play like this:

1. It follows naturally from the philosophy of bidding - jump with weak hands, describe cheaply with strong hands. This is a principle one can understand and teach.

2. WJS win when you have a WJS and SJS win when you have a SJS just by getting your hand off your chest in one bid (every convention works for the hand it was designed for, except Mini-Roman). WJS come up more than SJS so this should be an advantage

So far you can say, well squat, SJS help my slam bidding I'll stick to them. But:

3. WJS have great advantages when you don't bid them! One of them is that 3♥ is GF in the auction 1♦ - 1♥ - (not 1NT) - 3♥. Another big one is the same auction but responder rebids 2♥. This is invitational.
In effect this means that you are on the 2-level with your invitational values and misfit instead of the 3-level. Guess what: if you are in your 6-1 fit with 22/23 HCP most of the time 2M is hard enough!