[vegasfun]

I bid 1 nt my partner bid 2c. Opponent interfered with 2 h i X and partner said that was for penalty. I disagree i had 4 s and wanted to know if he had s if not if he had h for penalty

What is answer ?

[KingCovert]

I think your partner is correct here.

You've established ~24+ HCP on this auction already. And your hand is pretty well described as balanced. If you're holding 2♠ and 4♥, you'd want to be able to double for penalty right? What about 5♥?

Your double essentially meant, "Hey partner, bid spades when it's right, and let's defend 2♥x when it's right." You know what says this much more effectively? Pass. Honestly, your interpretation of double is kind of useless, it's never going to help, also what does your pass mean now? Your partner will never let the opponents play 2♥ undoubled. That's for sure. Your partner will never pass.

Your bids over interference in this sequence should describe your hand, and when you don't have a useful bid, you should pass and let partner make the judgement here. Your partner can have so many different hands. You could be cold for slam, your partner could have 5-4 in the majors. Your partner could have 4♠ and a heart void. You need to help them evaluate their hand.

Bidding says you'd prefer to play the hand and have meaningful length in the bid suit. Doubling says that defending this contract is a great idea opposite the hand you expect partner to have, 4 spades and 9-10 HCP. Passing says you have none of these things, and that your hand is pretty much as described, your partner will get the hand right.

[FelicityR]

You are doubling for penalties. If partner cannot stand it, he/she will bid. Your hand is defined within specific limits.

Think about the sequence without the opponents interfering. You would have bid 2♠. Double says the opponents have bid your suit and defending 2♥X is going to be the best result for your side.

[pescetom]

KingCovert, on 2019-September-12, 13:13, said:

I think your partner is correct here.

You've established ~24+ HCP on this auction already. And your hand is pretty well described as balanced. If you're holding 2♠ and 4♥, you'd want to be able to double for penalty right? What about 5♥?

You're making some assumptions that are far from universal here, namely that 1NT might include a 5-card major and (more extremely) that Stayman promises HCP. Otherwise I agree.

[johnu]

KingCovert, on 2019-September-12, 13:13, said:

You've established ~24+ HCP on this auction already. And your hand is pretty well described as balanced.

Well maybe 23+ HCP if partner has an invitational or better hand. But partner could have a Garbage (drop dead) Stayman hand if you play that treatment, in which case you would have a lot less HCP. Partner will have 3-4 hearts for the Garbage Stayman bid.

[KingCovert]

pescetom, on 2019-September-12, 13:39, said:

You're making some assumptions that are far from universal here, namely that 1NT might include a 5-card major and (more extremely) that Stayman promises HCP. Otherwise I agree.

I didn't claim that it "must", I'm just saying, if you had 4-5♥ and your opponent bid natural ♥... You'd certainly love to be able to penalize in this sequence. Many agree to play 5-card major common in 1NT openers, especially in North America.

johnu, on 2019-September-12, 14:11, said:

Well maybe 23+ HCP if partner has an invitational or better hand. But partner could have a Garbage (drop dead) Stayman hand if you play that treatment, in which case you would have a lot less HCP. Partner will have 3-4 hearts for the Garbage Stayman bid.

Some people like to thread the needle and try to find some speculative 17-8 HCP fits that make game and bid stayman, it's true, which is why I used the tilde (~) to say approximately 24+. I understand that you two were just completing the answer, but I don't see how Garbage Stayman bids change anything here, that's just even more reason to not bid. I think this is even more reason not to force your partner to bid with a double that doesn't describe anything useful. I do think we're all on the same page though.

[Vampyr]

You actually get more penalties if you play takeout doubles here. Takeout is normal in most of the world.

[helene_t]

If you play weak NT it may be slightly better to play x as t/o as partner might have some weak 3-3-5-2 and just wants to defend undoubled if you have hearts. Another advantage of showing the spade with a double is that when you have a spades fit you get responder to play the hand which, contrary to popular belief, tends to be better.

On the other hand, if pass could be either hearts or no major, it is difficult for partner to decide whether to double.

So I think on balance, especially if you play strong notrump, it is best to play double as penalty.

Much more important, though, is to know what your agreements are. A mediocre agreement that is understood by both partners is far better than a superior agreement that is understood only by one partner.

[Tramticket]

It isn't an auction that has ever occurred for us. But logically, it must be penalties (whatever our NT range) since partner will either have an invitational+ hand or heart support if a Garbage Stayman - so it must be safe to double to show five hearts or four good hearts. We have a 2S bid available to show 4 spades and don't really need a take-out double.

RHO's bid is unusual. If competent I would expect a very good quality 6+ card suit since it seems unlikely that LHO will have any points or any heart support.

[fourdad]

You already fully described your hand and partner is in charge of the auction. Unless you have previously agreed to something different, you pass. Was 2H down and by how much?

[aawk]

These bidding situations needs fixed agreements and depends what 2♣ means qua strength. If it is limit or better you have to agree if a dbl is for penalty or negative showing a 4 card ♠. What you agree on is a matter of style and if you don't know let your partner decide, Imo a dbl should show the other major and let partner decide to make it penalty and after a pass your partner can dbl for penalty or bid game knowing you have a 2-3 card ♠.

If 2♣ can be less than a limit bid you have no choice and a dbl must be penalty.

[nekthen]

How much extra effort is it to tell us the range of the NT bid?

In general, I think you should pass unless you have 4♠, in which case you bid 2♠

One thing I have noticed, when people make a bid where the meaning has not been agreed, is a tendency to assign the meaning they want it to have, instead of looking at it from partners viewpoint.

I think it is a reasonable agreement to have all doubles after a 1N opener or overcall to be for penalties

In this situation, where partner can have anything from zero to slam going with 4 spades and a heart void, you should bid 2♠ and await developments

[jdulmage]

Always penalty. You can bid 2 spades if you want to show spades

[miamijd]

100% penalty, showing hearts. If partner has a stiff or void h, he can remove it if he thinks that's the right move.

You had 4S and wanted either to penalize H (partner passes) or play in spades. Pass serves that function nicely. If partner's suit is H, he will X and you will leave it. If partner's suit is S, he will either bid NT, a minor, make a cue bid, possibly bid spades -- something other than X. Now you can show your spades.

Cheers,
Mike

[KingCovert]

helene_t, on 2019-September-12, 21:14, said:

Another advantage of showing the spade with a double is that when you have a spades fit you get responder to play the hand which, contrary to popular belief, tends to be better.

I'm glad you brought this up, because many people do not understand this. Transfers, for example, are played for two major reasons.

1: The transfer is forcing, and allows responder to better engineer an auction based on their strength/shape
2: It preserves the lead going through the usually weaker hand, and into the stronger hand, creating some possible finesses.

Transfers are primarily played because of reason #1, not reason #2. It's much harder to defend when the 1NT opener is in dummy, because there is much more uncertainty about what the declarer holds.

How many times have we all wondered if it's safe to cash our King in a side suit? We really need our partner to lead it, but we're on lead, and unsure if we'll regain it in time to defeat the contract... So we lead our King in the 2nd round of a suit where dummy still holds QJX, ruff, and two tricks promote without a loser, when the ruffing finesse fails and you hold enough length to guard the suit... These sort of uncertainties just aren't as common when you can see the only hand that **could** be distributional face up on the table.

Good point!

[wank]

you can play takeout (showing other M) or penalty. both are entirely reasonable. penalty is normal. takeout is only really played as an option in expert circles.

[Zelandakh]

Vegasfun, think about this for a moment objectively. You are presumably playing with a pickup partner here and had a choice between making a call with a clear meaning that fits your hand perfectly or one that could be interpreted in at least 2 ways with one of those interpretations highly likely to lead to a disaster. Regardless of the pros and cons of the argument here, which do you think represents the more practical option? In this respect, even if both you and your partner were to have thought that takeout was the better agreement, doubling without having made that agreement beforehand was a clear mistake.

[ahydra]

With one partner I have the agreement that such Xs are for penalty, with the one exception 1NT-2C-(2S); X which shows hearts. Penalty makes a lot of sense since your trumps are over theirs.

In this particular case, since you had spades I would have just bid spades, as if there was no interference.

ahydra