[eagles123]

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how do people bid this (MP)

N deals

thanks,

Eagles

[TWO4BRIDGE]

eagles123, on 2014-April-25, 09:31, said:

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how do people bid this (MP)
N deals
thanks,
Eagles

North South
1H - Jac2NT!
3H ( strong, won't bid stiff Ace ) - 4S! ( RKCB )
4NT ( 0 or 3 ) - 6H

[billw55]

1♥ - 2NT (gf heart raise)
3♠ (shortness) - 4♥ (signoff - spade values possibly wasted)
pass

.. is what I would do, but two4 may have a better idea.

[kenrexford]

I avoid Jacoby 2NT like the plague if I do not have primes outside. South hand is completely the opposite of what I want for Jacoby 2NT. So, I approach this auction from a 2/1 perspective:

Opener: 1♥ (1NT briefly considered but discarded)

Responder: 2♣ (balanced with fit, or real clubs)

Opener: 2♦ (balanced, or real diamonds)

Responder: 2♥ (hearts agreed)

Opener: 2♠ (spade Ace, King, stiff, or void)

Responder: 2NT (not two top hearts)

Opener: 3♣ (hearts not yet a known problem, club Ace, King, or Queen)

Responder: 3♦ (diamond Ace, King, or Queen)

Opener: 3♥ (two of the top three hearts)

Responder: 3♠ (spade Ace, King, stiff, or void)

Opener: 4♦ (contextually non-serious, with no second top club card but the Ace, King, or Queen of diamonds)

At this point, Responder knows that the hearts are solid with at least a 5-4 fit. He knows that Opener has the spade Ace or shortness. He knows that Opener has at worst the diamond Queen and the club Queen. Because Opener is contextually non-serious, however, Opener is probably on the light end as to his control types, meaning a tendency for Queens rather than Aces and a tendency for stiffs rather than voids. This is a judgment call as to whether to try one more time. The auction could end up stopping at 4♥.

But, if South decides to move forward, he could bid 4♠ as Variable Key Card Blackwood. Arguably, one could decide that this is a "Weak Key Card Blackwood" scenario because of the "non-serious" call, but I consider this to be a Middle Key Card Blackwood, because I am a purist.

Responder: 4♠ (MKCB)

Opener: 5♦ (Two Aces, plus the trump King)

Responder now is fairly certain that Opener has either ♠x ♥AKxxx ♦Qxxx ♣Axx or ♠A(x) ♥AKxxx ♦Qxxx ♣Qx(x). He uses judgment to decide what to do.

[MrAce]

eagles123, on 2014-April-25, 09:31, said:

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how do people bid this (MP)

N deals

thanks,

Eagles

You did not give EW hands so we are having hard time to decide whether we should stay in 4 or bid 6

[hrothgar]

eagles123, on 2014-April-25, 09:31, said:

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Playing standard methods, I'd expect something like

1♥ - 2N
3♥ - 4♣
4♥ - 4NT
5♣ - 6♥

3H shows extra values
4C is a cue bid
4H denies Last Train
4NT is keycard

[straube]

eagles123, on 2014-April-25, 09:31, said:

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how do people bid this (MP)

N deals

thanks,

Eagles

Hope relays are allowed...

1C-1D (strong.....0-4 or 9+)
1N-2C (5+H.....9+)
2N-3C (4D and short spade.....asking)
3H-3S (1543.....asking)
3N-4D (10 QPs...terminator)
4H-P (forced)

10 queen points means we're at best on a finesse.

[mikeh]

There is no 'right' answer.

I think it entirely ok to start with whatever your forcing raise is: indeed, it seems to me to be entirely normal. It is possible for S to construct hands on which a 4-4 spade fit is superior to playing in hearts, but starting with 1♠ seems likely to cause problems later on.

In addition, sophisticated methods over forcing major suit raises usually allow for the identification of side 4 card suits, altho spades is often the most difficult, space-consuming, one to find.

As for how anyone would bid after the forcing raise, that depends almost entirely on methods: what are your agreements?

If we are stuck with a basic J2N structure, then I agree with TWO4 that one should not show spade shortness.

The whole point of showing shortness is to encourage partner to upgrade when he has little in that suit. Ideally one holds xxx or Jxxx or the like. One ought to get discouraged with KJxx, since this holding may be completely worthless.

I wouldn't bid 3♥, however. As I understand basic J2N, this is the strongest move one can make, other than an improbable keycard. I would choose 3N, showing an intermediate hand.

A stiff A is not a good holding, in that one prefers that one's top cards are accompanied by some length. The minors are awful for slam purposes, especially the diamonds.

My view is that if responder can't show any interest after we bid 3N, we aren't missing a good slam.

As it happens, S has, I think, just barely enough to cue 4♣ (which minor you cue is a matter of agreement but most these days bid 1st and 2nd round controls up the line), and over that I would retreat, as N, to 4♥, unless I were playing Last Train, in which case I might, but probably wouldn't, bid 4♦ as a forward-going bland noise. Having shown mild interest I think I would just bid 4♥ which doesn't bar partner but does warn him that I ain't overly excited.

I think that would lead to playing 4♥.

I'm not ashamed to admit I don't mind missing slams that are no better than 50%, and indeed this one is less than 50%. While I wouldn't be overly worried about a club ruff, we have all seen that sort of layout defeat an otherwise great contract, and this one isn't even great.

[FrancesHinden]

It obviously depends on methods, but I hope we wouldn't play in 6H. Two possible auctions are

1H - 2NT (Jacoby)
3D* - 3H**
4D*** - ?

*No shortage (we don't like showing singleton A as shortage), good 14 HCP or better
** Asks, no shortage (our Jacoby includes 15+ with a shortage)
***4D 2542 or possibly 2632

It's not clear what will happen next.
Opposite extra high cards, responder might just keycard. When he finds out we are off an ace, it's hard to construct a hand where 6H makes and 6NT doesn't.

[jallerton]

kenrexford, on 2014-April-25, 11:31, said:

I avoid Jacoby 2NT like the plague if I do not have primes outside. South hand is completely the opposite of what I want for Jacoby 2NT.

Jacoby shows a game force with 4-card support for partner's suit; the South hand looks to fit the bill. The complete opposite of what I want for Jacoby 2NT is a 0-count with a void in partner's suit.

[Cyberyeti]

1♥(4+)-2N (good raise to 3+, 4+♥)
3♦(5+♥4+♦ better than minimum)-3♠(cue)
4♥ (no minor suit cue)

Now it's almost impossible to visualise a hand where the slam is better than a finesse

[MrAce]

jallerton, on 2014-April-25, 16:04, said:

The complete opposite of what I want for Jacoby 2NT is a 0-count with a void in partner's suit.

+1

[mycroft]

I'd probably see:

1♥-2NT;
3NT (balanced medium)-4NT (? If I did first-and-second cuebidding, 4♣ is nicer, but I'm not going to get any better cue information after 4♦)
5♣ (0/3)-6♥.

Yeah, it's on a finesse. 15-17s opposite 15 usually are. I might end up giving up and bidding 4♥ after 3NT, too, depending on how I felt that day.

If partner bids 3♥ after 2NT, you're not stopping me. That's why I like the "traditional" three balanced ranges. My benefit over Acol is that I know I have a 9-card fit; only 8 and a finesse may discourage me. Do you have a way of showing extra length after 2NT?

[kenrexford]

jallerton, on 2014-April-25, 16:04, said:

Jacoby shows a game force with 4-card support for partner's suit; the South hand looks to fit the bill. The complete opposite of what I want for Jacoby 2NT is a 0-count with a void in partner's suit.

The Jacoby 2NT I play is not defined solely by trump length and strength. Hence, for me it doesn't fit the bill at all.

Note that Mike sees a problem, namely the stiff spade Ace. This is the type of problem that I am concerned about with a free Jacoby 2NT. There are many other problems also.

[jallerton]

It's a matter of style, I suppose. In my view, the main feature of the South hand is the 4-card support with game forcing values. I can see why on some hands Responder might want to show a shortage or a strong side suit (which may involve alternative agreed responses), but not here.

As far as I can see, on your sequence Responder could have 3- or 4-card support, and may or may not have clubs. I'd only consider bidding 2♣ if it were a game forcing relay with agreed follow-ups whereby Responder could determine Opener's exact shape and strength. Then 2♣ has the space saving advantage over 2NT.

[zarpoints]

1♥ 4NT
5♥ 6♥

why beat about the bush?

[Wackojack]

zarpoints, on 2014-April-26, 02:39, said:

1♥ 4NT
5♥ 6♥

why beat about the bush?

Because responder needs to know whether or not the opening bid has any extras. Take away the Q♦ and replace with a small ♦and the contract has no hope.

If your responses to J2N give partner an idea on your strength and distribution this will help partner determine the ultimate contract. One method is:
3♣ = any min
3♦ = extras no shortage
3♥ = extras ♣ shortage
3♠ = ♦shortage
3NT = extras ♠ shortage.

Here the stiff ace makes things difficult. As said better not to count this as a shortage.
So 1♥ - 2N -3♦ Now maybe if you have no other tools besides cue bidding you could take a punt with key card.

[Wackojack]

zarpoints, on 2014-April-26, 02:39, said:

1♥ 4NT
5♥ 6♥

why beat about the bush?

Because responder needs to know whether or not the opening bid has any extras. Take away the Q♦ and replace with a small ♦and the contract has no hope.

If your responses to J2N give partner an idea on your strength and distribution this will help partner determine the ultimate contract. One method is:
3♣ = any min
3♦ = extras no shortage
3♥ = extras ♣ shortage
3♠ = ♦shortage
3NT = extras ♠ shortage.

Here the stiff ace makes things difficult. As said better not to count this as a shortage.
So 1♥ - 2N -3♦ Now maybe if you have no other tools besides cue bidding you could take a punt with key card.

[Wackojack]

zarpoints, on 2014-April-26, 02:39, said:

1♥ 4NT
5♥ 6♥

why beat about the bush?

Because responder needs to know whether or not the opening bid has any extras. Take away the Q♦ and replace with a small ♦and the contract has no hope.

If your responses to J2N give partner an idea on your strength and distribution this will help partner determine the ultimate contract. One method is:
3♣ = any min
3♦ = extras no shortage
3♥ = extras ♣ shortage
3♠ = ♦shortage
3NT = extras ♠ shortage.

Here the stiff ace makes things difficult. As said better not to count this as a shortage.
So 1♥ - 2N -3♦ Now maybe if you have no other tools besides cue bidding you could take a punt with key card.

[Lord Molyb]

Did the triple post above confuse anyone?

Precision:
1♣ - 2NT
3♥ - 4♥
4♠ - 5♦
5♥ - P

1♣ = 15+
2NT = 14+ balanced, force to 4NT
3♥ = natural
4♥ = natural
4♠ = 5♦ = cue
5♥ = no ♣A or ♦K