[Shugart23]

Does anyone have bids/techniques to show positive responses to partners 1C opening when holding two 5+ card suits. This is a difficult one for partner and me...This is because 1C by partner followed by a positive response by me begins sequences of immediate asking bid sequences.

for example 1C -1H (shows positive response with 5+ Spades) whereupon opener bids 1S to ask about spade honors and length or bids 1NT to ask about controls. In either case, after responder has answered, another series of asking bids commences.

Every once in awhile, partner opens 1C and I have, say 5 Spades and 5 Hearts and 10+ points. In this case I have to choose one of my suits and partner may never know I had another 5 card suit.

I wonder how others might handle. Thanks

[Stephen Tu]

Use symmetric relay instead of asking bids? Don't play mandatory asking bids? Only use asking bids with a fit, bid naturally otherwise, ask about controls later?

There's plenty of space after a positive response to look for controls *after* locating fits. Garozzo said he wouldn't use control showing responses to 1 club if he were to re-do Blue team club, finding fits more important. Still applies on second round of auction IMO.

[PrecisionL]

Yes, we have experimented with several schemes for responder showing 5-5 hands with a positive response.

We settled on the following:

1♣ - 1NT = Game Force and 5-5 any two suits, or 5-4 or 6-4 in the majors.

2♣ = asking

2♦ = longer hearts, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♥ = longer spades, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♠ = 5♥ + 5♣/5♦
2NT = 5♠+ 5♣/5♦
3♣ = 5-5 in the minors
3♦ = 5-5 in the majors

Now a suit bid by Opener sets trumps and is Beta for Controls.

[straube]

PrecisionL, on 2013-August-16, 19:51, said:

Yes, we have experimented with several schemes for responder showing 5-5 hands with a positive response.

We settled on the following:

1♣ - 1NT = Game Force and 5-5 any two suits, or 5-4 or 6-4 in the majors.

2♣ = asking

2♦ = longer hearts, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♥ = longer spades, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♠ = 5♥ + 5♣/5♦
2NT = 5♠+ 5♣/5♦
3♣ = 5-5 in the minors
3♦ = 5-5 in the majors

Now a suit bid by Opener sets trumps and is Beta for Controls.

I think that's really poor. 1C-1N should show specific suit information before the auction gets contested. I mean, imagine if you could organize your response structure like

1D-0-7
1H-any 5+4 hand
1S-any single-suited hand
1N-any 4432 or 4333 hand
2C-any 5/5 hand
etc

No one should want to play that either because it's useless information after RHO preempts.

[PrecisionL]

straube, on 2013-August-16, 20:00, said:

I think that's really poor. 1C-1N should show specific suit information before the auction gets contested. I mean, imagine if you could organize your response structure like

1D-0-7
1H-any 5+4 hand
1S-any single-suited hand
1N-any 4432 or 4333 hand
2C-any 5/5 hand
etc

No one should want to play that either because it's useless information after RHO preempts.

And your positive suggestion is?

[straube]

PrecisionL, on 2013-August-16, 20:07, said:

And your positive suggestion is?

I'd recommend a relay system. Imo the best one is ...http://www.cs.ucla.edu/~awm/bridge/IMprecision.pdf

but a newcomer to relay could get started with a basic symmetric relay system such as TOSR (Transfer Oriented Symmetric Relay) or even a more basic relay system such as devised by Professor Kerr...
http://www.bridgeguy...ionKerr2000.pdf

If instead one wants to play Precision (bidding suits at each other), then I'd allow responder to show a 5-cd suit first and then decide whether you want opener to be able to show his own suits or allow opener to sometimes ask/relay for a second suit of responder's. Meckwell does something like this. They really pay a price in terms of patterning out responder's hand (they really don't try to accomplish that), but I suppose they would argue that showing suits in length order and ties to higher ranking suits prepares them best for a contested auction.

[Shugart23]

I didn't think relay systems are allowed under GCC, but I will look at your link

[rbforster]

Shugart23, on 2013-August-16, 21:04, said:

I didn't think relay systems are allowed under GCC, but I will look at your link

They absolutely are, since GCC doesn't count ones that start with openers rebid. Only those that start with responders first bid aren't allowed, and even then more is allowed than you might think (like 1M-2♣ GF relay is ok for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me).

[rbforster]

PrecisionL, on 2013-August-16, 20:07, said:

And your positive suggestion is?

Just play TOSR, or if that's too much off the bat, play everything besides 1♦ (negative) is a GF transfer on both the first and second bids by responder. 1♠ is balanced.

[kayin801]

After 1C-1H (5+ spades) my partner and I play 1S as you do, starting asks, and 1NT as a general asking bid looking for more info on partner's shape. Then partner can start to pattern out.

[Free]

Agree with Straube that using 1NT to give useless information is a poor solution. Even bidding (semi)natural is much better: 1♣-1♠-whatever-2♥-whatever-3♥ shows a 5-5, and you're prepared much better for 4th seat intervention...

[PrecisionL]

Free, on 2013-August-20, 01:56, said:

Agree with Straube that using 1NT to give useless information is a poor solution. Even bidding (semi)natural is much better: 1♣-1♠-whatever-2♥-whatever-3♥ shows a 5-5, and you're prepared much better for 4th seat intervention...

So, I take it that you haven't tried this approach and it is just your opinion?

Every part of a system affects every other part, so there is no useless information .....

I have 3 years experience playing this approach in two partnerships and find it works just fine with the rest of the system.

The rest of the system is transfer positives into 4-card majors and Rodwell's 2♦ response for 8-10 balanced hands. One or both minors (but not 5-5) are shown with a 2♣ response.

[straube]

PrecisionL,

I don't mean any personal offense to you whatsoever, but I am critical of this use for 1C-1N. Even in an uncontested auction you've surrendered a bunch of valuable sequences. You pretty much are forced to relay after 1C-1N to find out what responder actually has. This is no worse than most GF relay auctions, but it loses when you compare it to Moscito or Imprecision which both are allowed 1C-1N, 2D+ sequences as well as a 2C relay.

But the real problem is after RHO intervention. If it goes 1C P 1N (3D) how do you recover? True, you're no worse of than Moscito here after 1C P 1D (3D) in that you know responder has a GF and not much more than that..but you've "spent" more in terms of bidding room (1N compared to 1D) to get there and you really ought to be more ahead than you are.

I don't think one needs to play this to see the problem with it. I feel sure it's a weakness. If your other bids make up for it somehow then that's great, but I wonder how they really could.

[Zelandakh]

PrecisionL, on 2013-August-16, 20:07, said:

And your positive suggestion is?

Well you could invert the meaning of 1NT with all the hands you currently have for responses of 2♦ to 3♦ on the grounds that the opps are more likely to come in when Responder has extra shape. But if that grouping is not homogenous then you might create a worse problem than the one being solved.

As to the OP, could you not play 3 types of ask on the first round, the lowest asking for shape resolution and the other 2 being the honour and control asks you currently have? Call it a pre-alpha or something. That would mean the other asks push you slightly higher but the shape information is often also valuable for slam investigations and having choices potentially allows for more finely-tuned auctions.

[PrecisionL]

straube, on 2013-August-20, 08:00, said:

PrecisionL,

I don't mean any personal offense to you whatsoever, but I am critical of this use for 1C-1N. ......

Thanks for clarifying your post, we do want to keep the forums constructive and language is important as is experience.

I once studied under a professor who asked that we examine how the new ideas we were presented in class could work rather than what was wrong with them ....

[yunling]

PrecisionL, on 2013-August-16, 19:51, said:

Yes, we have experimented with several schemes for responder showing 5-5 hands with a positive response.

We settled on the following:

1♣ - 1NT = Game Force and 5-5 any two suits, or 5-4 or 6-4 in the majors.

2♣ = asking

2♦ = longer hearts, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♥ = longer spades, either 5-4 or 6-4, but not 5-5
2♠ = 5♥ + 5♣/5♦
2NT = 5♠+ 5♣/5♦
3♣ = 5-5 in the minors
3♦ = 5-5 in the majors

Now a suit bid by Opener sets trumps and is Beta for Controls.

I can't see how this approach really work. If you have some bid for 5-5, your gain by showing them immediately, which is not the case when you mix them up in a 1NT bid.

Why not play something like
1NT majors or minor, 54+ but not 55 minors
2C one minor
2D/H/S/NT as before
3C 5+H and 5+minor
3D 5+S and 5+C
3H 5+S and 5+D
3S 55minors
at least you shows your 5-5 suit before the possible interference, and 1NT is less vulnerable since usually p know the specific suit you have if opponents preempt.

[PrecisionL]

Quote

Why not play something like
1NT majors or minor, 54+ but not 55 minors
2C one minor
2D/H/S/NT as before
3C 5+H and 5+minor
3D 5+S and 5+C
3H 5+S and 5+D
3S 55minors
at least you shows your 5-5 suit before the possible interference, and 1NT is less vulnerable since usually p know the specific suit you have if opponents preempt.

Thanks for your comments.

Previously, we used 1NT for 5-4 or better in the majors only. Later, we took the 5-5 out of other auctions (since they are low frequency) and added them to the 1NT response. We are quite happy with the current scheme. Interference has not caused us many bad boards.

The 1♥ and 1♠ responses are multi. All three of these responses are easily unpacked with relay bidding.