[quiddity]

Maybe this is too aggressive but I think I would try 2D and hope to follow with 2S and then 3H. I don't want to give up on spades yet (maybe partner has xxx Qxx in the majors), I don't want to risk partner passing a nonforcing spade bid when we have a heart fit, and it seems like jumping in spades is a misdescription.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 09:56, said:

I also posted this on Bridgewinners.

At the table, I decided to double. The opponents stay silent for the duration.

Partner bids 1♥. Now what?

This is becoming an issue eachtime when we are not sure if pd bid with 3 card or not, the suit we were hoping him to bid. When we have 4 card support + a decent suit of ours.

Perhaps we can invent a convention right here that says "DBL and then jump in a suit by doubler over pds weak response shows a hand stronger than simple overcall, 4 card fit+ 5+ natural suit. So we can bid 2♠ with this

And start with dbl and cue and then bidding our suit, with single suited hands that are way too strong (22+) to just simply bid suit after DBL.( i haven't encountered more than twice in last 30+ years a hand that fits in this category tbh, but other type comes way too often.

[nigel_k]

I think double is pretty normal in most places outside this forum. You need an agreement, but if I sat down opposite an expert with no agreements, I wouldn't expect him to play me for more than this if I double and bid.

When partner bids 1♥, I would just keep things simple and bid 3♥ to show primary support and invitational strength.

[Phil]

There's some secondary questions I would like to address here:

1. Does a cue create a GF?
2. Does a cue deny four card support? If it can show four card support, would it be GF?
3. Does 1♠ deny a primary heart fit?
4. What is the difference between a strong heart raise (3♥) and a cue followed by 3♥?
5. Does a splinter show substantially extra values than 4♥, or does one show a big balanced hand and the other shows some shape and playing strength?

I have my own opinions, but I would like to vet these questions.

[cherdano]

I really dislike this hand, too little in our long suits, too many tenaces that need many entries to partner to work. I would overcall 1♠.

Over X and 1♥, I would just bid 3♥. Cue-then-3♥ is forcing for me.

[Fluffy]

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

\1. Does a cue create a GF?

Obviously not

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

2. Does a cue deny four card support? If it can show four card support, would it be GF?

If you have support it is GF MO, with 2♥ and 3♥ avaible you don't need a third way to show extras.

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

3. Does 1♠ deny a primary heart fit?

Yes, it is not forcing after all, but I would not put all my eggs in one basket here, if after 1♠ doubler insists on playing hearts I would let him.

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

4. What is the difference between a strong heart raise (3♥) and a cue followed by 3♥?

3♥ is not forcing

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

5. Does a splinter show substantially extra values than 4♥, or does one show a big balanced hand and the other shows some shape and playing strength?

splinter and 4♥ IMO show 5+ hearts, with balanced hands cuebid goes first to allow partner to play NT with 3343

[billw55]

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 09:56, said:

I also posted this on Bridgewinners.

At the table, I decided to double. The opponents stay silent for the duration.

Partner bids 1♥. Now what?

I think 1♠ is forcing and I would do that, then bid hearts next round.

[nigel_k]

These are good questions. The only things I am sure of are:

1. 2♦ should promise another bid. If partner has five hearts and some values, he needs to be able to just bid 2♥ so I can describe, rather than have to jump around.

2. If I bid 2♦ and partner bids 3♣, I may bid 3♥ with only three card support. So one difference when bidding 3♥ immediately is that I definitely show four card support. Also, the immediate 3♥ commits us to taking nine tricks so I don't see how it can really be weaker than an invitational sequence that starts with 2♦.

3. Even though partner is limited, I doubt there are many hands with a shortage where I would jump straight to 4♥. Either game will be poor when partner is weak and an invite is enough, or slam will be good when partner has the right cards and we need space to find them.

[Fluffy]

BTW for the first decision I find it close, I think that ♠10 plays a role, with weak spades you want to encourage finding 4-4 hearts, but the better the spades, the less it works, and the more sense it makes to make a descriptive 1♠ bid.

I think that the bullets in the minors protect us very well from being tap and it pays to play in hearts even if partner is 2-4 in the majors. The drawback is that partner will think I have a better hand when I later bid spades myself, but tactically its better so in the end I like double better than 1♠, with KQ10xxx I'd go for 1♠ even when that hand is stronger.

[Phil]

billw55, on 2012-September-12, 14:49, said:

I think 1♠ is forcing and I would do that, then bid hearts next round.

1♠ isn't forcing.

[CSGibson]

I'd start double planning a minimum double/pull auction with the side benefit of having 4 hearts. When partner does respond 1H, I think I'm worth a cue-bid. Over 2♥ by partner, I might pull out 2♠ & see what happens next.

[Zelandakh]

Phil, on 2012-September-12, 14:22, said:

1. Does a cue create a GF?
2. Does a cue deny four card support? If it can show four card support, would it be GF?
3. Does 1♠ deny a primary heart fit?
4. What is the difference between a strong heart raise (3♥) and a cue followed by 3♥?
5. Does a splinter show substantially extra values than 4♥, or does one show a big balanced hand and the other shows some shape and playing strength?

1. Not playing standard methods. However it is quite playable for double then cue to be the equivalent of a 2♣ opening (big balanced or GF) and for double then jump cue to take care of the big 3 card raise hands. I think these methods are actually simpler to use for the vast majority of bridge players.

2. No but you would only cue with 4 card support when having enough for game.

3. Pretty much. I suppose if you had a hand with ♠AKQJxxx and ♥xxxx then it would make sense to suppress the hearts to show the spades; but normally you either raise or cue with 4 card support. I am quite surprised at the suggestion that 1♠ is forcing here.

4. A direct 3♥ is a strong invite. A cue followed by a jump to 3♥ is a slam try.

5. I think you can only splinter in the opponents' suit: (1♣) - X - 1♥; 4♣; also that this does not show extra values over a direct 4♥, only a different shape. With extra values, go via the simple cue. This makes sense since even a minimum game force with shortage would have play for slam opposite a fitting maximum for the simple response to the take-out double.

[Phil]

Epilogue:

At the table I bid 3♥. Partner passed with a trashy 5 count - something like Qx Q9xx xxx Jxxx. In hearts, he was able to establish a spade entry to hand to pick up ♥AJ on his left. The pairs playing spades lost two hearts and a spade.

I never saw the recap so I do not know how many pairs got to game.

[Cyberyeti]

billw55, on 2012-September-10, 12:33, said:

The problem is partner passing it out with say, Qx QJx xxxx xxxx. Or xx Axxx Kxx xxx. Or something else that offers good play for game.

Or at least, that's what I thought the problem was, but maybe it's not after all.

Depends on your overcalling style, ours are up to strength (we WJO on many hands people would simple overcall) so we respond to them as we would to opening bids, the first hand is borderline, but the second (with a 13th card) is an easy bid in response to our 1♠ overcall which could be a lot better than this.