[Chamaco]

Regardless of the strength requirements for "pseudoreversing", I think the main reason to do it is showing a GOOD second suit.

Bidding 3m should show a good 5 card suit with at least 2 of the top 3 honors (QJTxx is also ok, but it's the minimum requirement), or exceptionally, a semisolid (4 of top 5 honors) 4 card suit.

Requirements for "pseudoreversing" to 2S can be a little more relaxed, but still in this case the quality of the spade suit is not that great and IMO does not justify it.

In both cases (minor and major suit "pseudoreversing"), the second suit should be a source of tricks, not just a bid showing a non-descript second suit.

This is the approach used by Mike Lawrence, but not only because he uses 2/1 as "semiGF": he chooses this approach mostly because it is much more helpful to evaluate how the hands fit in terms of "fillers" in pards suit: you show where your *values* are rather than simply showing shape with broken suits.
This way, even holding Hx in a suit where pard has guaranteed top honors can be greatly reevaluated for slam purposes.

I have to say that this approach does not lose much, because when you have a broken second suit you can still use the waiting rebid of the majhor and show your features later, helping much more your pard to evaluate the hand.

-----------------------------------------
Back to the hand.
It is easy to be overoptimistic with this hand, but in reality prudence is called for, since we have a singleton in pard suit and, so far no real reasons to be that happy.
We are in GF auction, but there are no other good news so far.

We have nothing to lose, and as a matter of fact, much to gain by making a waiting bid such as 2H:

1- we won't risk losing the spades fit if it is there
2- we have time to reevaluate the hand according to pard's rebid.

[nikos59]

Several esteemed members here suggest that opener should not or cannot
bid his spades because it would show extras or it would show a stronger
suit than Q10xx or whatever.

On the other hand, unless pard is playing Mafia (majors always first
in answering), which by the way is an excellent method that I
almost always follow, partner may well have a spade suit along with
longer clubs.

Let's see.
The auction has gone
1H - 2C
2H
and both partners may have four spades but no one has named the
suit yet.

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no risk of missing the
spade fit?

[Chamaco]

nikos59, on Nov 5 2004, 01:58 PM, said:

Are you seriously suggesting that there is no risk of missing the
spade fit?

Yes, but it not me who suggest it, it is Mike Lawrence :-)

2H does not deny spades.
It is just a waiting bid that says "Pard I cannot bid anything else because":

-2NT shows a NON minimum hand (e.g. 13+; you vcan play minimax ranges if you like so, e.g jumop to 3NT is 16-18 and 2NT is higher/lower range) and GUARANTEES side stoppers and guarantees at least 2 cards in pd suit (stiff honor may be occasional exception)
- "pseudoreversing" (2S/3m)guarantees a source of tricks (honors concentration)
- jump rebid shows a semisolid trump suit with extra length
- raising pard's 2/1: pard's 2/1 guarantees 5+ cards and a suit better than QTxxx. If the 2/1 suit is minor, opener needs a NON minimum hand (e.g. 14+ hcp and/or 6 losers hand), and HXX or XXXX support at least (honors concentration principle again).
Much different is the case where the 2/1 suit is hearts (over 1S opener), when the priority becomes to support responder regardless of the quality of the hand and quality of support. In this case, not raising immediately runs the concrete risk of losing the fit (unlike for spades in the hand we are examining here) so the requirements have to be relaxed.
-----------------------------------------------

Back to the hand
If responder had 5+ clubs and 4 spades, he will now bid spades and we'll support (ty Whereagles for examples :-) ), so no problem.

[whereagles]

Yes.

1H 2C
2H 2S
4S = QTxx AQ9xx Axx x

1H 2C
2H 2S
3S = QTxx AQ9xx AKx x

[flytoox]

playing 2/1, 2s shows extra, that is what i want to tell pd. So 2S is my bid. It is reverse, but not confined to 16+, but good 14+.

[luke warm]

nikos59, on Nov 5 2004, 03:58 PM, said:

On the other hand, unless pard is playing Mafia (majors always first in answering), which by the way is an excellent method that I almost always follow, partner may well have a spade suit along with longer clubs.

if i had a 2/1 gf hand with 4 spades and 5 clubs, i'd *never* bid the spades first... to me it's more important to establish the game force...

[Chamaco]

flytoox, on Nov 5 2004, 07:13 PM, said:

playing 2/1, 2s shows extra, that is what i want to tell pd. So 2S is my bid. It is reverse, but not confined to 16+, but good 14+.

But 2H waiting, playing 2/1 *does not deny* extras.

The extra showing bid is not only meant to show the extra, but also to show honors concentration.
Bidding 2H now you can still show extras later, if you have them.

Here, the hand is non-minimum but nothing to be proud of, with singleton in pard's suit: a waiting bid is enough, not denying extras, and not showing a mediocre spade suit.
If pard's rebid will show soething else, the hand can still drive to slam (especially if we find non-club fit), but opposite a 2C response, right now there is no room for reevaluation of the hand, with potentially lots of wastage in clubs in resoponder's hand.

Point count is not the key to 2/1 rebid, but rather concenbtration of honors and showing key features, and right now the hand has not any feature which seem to be worth showing (I wd not call a QTxx suit as a feature to show ).

[flytoox]

Chamaco, on Nov 5 2004, 09:08 PM, said:

flytoox, on Nov 5 2004, 07:13 PM, said:

playing 2/1, 2s shows extra, that is what i want to tell pd. So 2S is my bid. It is reverse, but not confined to 16+, but good 14+.

But 2H waiting, playing 2/1 *does not deny* extras.

The extra showing bid is not only meant to show the extra, but also to show honors concentration.
Bidding 2H now you can still show extras later, if you have them.

Here, the hand is non-minimum but nothing to be proud of, with singleton in pard's suit: a waiting bid is enough, not denying extras, and not showing a mediocre spade suit.
If pard's rebid will show soething else, the hand can still drive to slam (especially if we find non-club fit), but opposite a 2C response, right now there is no room for reevaluation of the hand, with potentially lots of wastage in clubs in resoponder's hand.

Point count is not the key to 2/1 rebid, but rather concenbtration of honors and showing key features, and right now the hand has not any feature which seem to be worth showing (I wd not call a QTxx suit as a feature to show ).

That Rebid 2H doesnt deny extra doesnt mean you should rebid 2H. Rebiding 2H should be avoided whenever possible. Here it is possible. In 2/1, rebidding your major after pd's 2/1 response is kind of catch-all bid. So you should avoid it whenever possible. Here you have good hand, not only high card points, but good control. So bid 2s.

As you mentioned, I also follow mike lawrence's advice. I believe he will rebid 2S not 2H.

[luke warm]

nah, he'd probably open 2D, as would a whole host of high caliber player

*lmao*

[HeartA]

Chamaco, on Nov 5 2004, 04:08 PM, said:

Point count is not the key to 2/1 rebid, but rather concenbtration of honors and showing key features, and right now the hand has not any feature which seem to be worth showing (I wd not call a QTxx suit as a feature to show  ).

After my partner rebid 2H, because "concenbtration of honors and showing key features" is the key, I should rebid 3♣, holding ♠K9xx, ♥Kx, ♦x, ♣AKQxxx.

Where are we going then?

BTW, what is RKC for?

[Chamaco]

flytoox, on Nov 5 2004, 10:39 PM, said:

That Rebid 2H doesnt deny extra doesnt mean you should rebid 2H. Rebiding 2H should be avoided whenever possible.

This also works the other way around: just becasue you have the distribution to bid 2S and values close to it, it does mean you have to bid it, if you have a decent alternative that avoids the pitfalls of bidding a lousy suit.

In my opinion, if opener has any alternative rebid, he should avoid mentioning a suit without honors concentration above 2 of his major ("pseudoreverse"). This should be higher priority than showing some 3 hcp extras: of course, if the hcp exceed 16/17 hcp, then there is a need to show immediately the extras some way, but usually in that case you have either a GOOD second suit to show or a GOOD suit to jump rebid, or some NT descriptive bid.

With this pattern, it is not that fundamental to discriminate a 12/13 from a 15 count. It is plausible, possible, but not essential. It would be good to do it IF YOU HAD A GOOD SUIT TO SHOW.
It is much more important to show the GOOD features of the hand, either distributional or in honors concentration.

2/1 sequences should rather focus on bidding features rather than hcp, and here opener's hand has only one (unbiddable at this point) feature: the good diamond controls.

Mentioning a second suit above 2 of a major should show good values there. There may be cases where there is no good alternative, but here there is a good alternative, the 2H waiting bid, which won't lead partner to believe we have good values in spades, and it does not deny extras. These requirements fit with the example hand so I do not see any problems with them.

[Chamaco]

HeartA, on Nov 5 2004, 11:16 PM, said:

After my partner rebid 2H, because "concenbtration of honors and showing key features" is the key, I should rebid 3♣, holding ♠K9xx, ♥Kx, ♦x, ♣AKQxxx.

Where are we going then?

Quote

After my partner rebid 2H, because "concenbtration of honors and showing key features" is the key, I should rebid 3♣, holding ♠K9xx, ♥Kx, ♦x, ♣AKQxxx.

Nope, I bid 2S and if pard does not support, I bid 4C as a slam try.
Quite easy, IMO

Quote

BTW, what is RKC for?

I play kickback, so it wd be spades, but it is just a matter of pship agreement.

[Chamaco]

Now that apparently the various approaches to opener's rebid seem to have been explained by the posters, it would be interesting to know if there was a specific reason (e.g. inherent to the story of this hand) why Ben started the poll

[the hog]

Clear cut 2H. 2S bidders do not know how to evaluate a hand.

[inquiry]

Chamaco, on Nov 6 2004, 04:25 PM, said:

Now that apparently the various approaches to opener's rebid seem to have been explained by the posters, it would be interesting to know if there was a specific reason (e.g. inherent to the story of this hand) why Ben started the poll 

This is a kind of hand that has always interested me. Everyone knows how to make first bids, and even most first rebids... but diverge often on later bids. But here is one where I thought there would be a lot of reasons for alternative bids.

And I was wondering if the world has "improved" (read match my choice). since this question (hand and auction) was originally published in the july 1988 master solver chargers bridge world. In 1988, the results of the MSC was (first number was number of expert votes, percentage is the percentage of readers votes who wrote in)

2S = 12, 33%
2D = 8, 21%
2H = 4, 32%
2N = 4, 13%

So in 1988, and now, the most popular vote was 2S. Surprizingly, the right vote (that is my vote) was second with the experts thne (2D), but not too popular with the readers. Then, 2H and 2S were very close among the readers but the experts. Here, in our poll, 2H is almost an after thought.

If you play 2S DOES NOT PROMISE extra value (hence, no "precison" part of the question, 2S rebid seems fine). Otherwise, I have to agree with RON and say that if you rebid 2S on this hand, you (and the 12 expert voters in 1988), don't know how to bid. BTW, someone suggested that Mike Lawarence would rebid 2S with this hand. Maybe today, but in 1988 he rebid 2H's on this one.

I agree with the group of experts who, in 1988 said 2D.. People like Larry Cohen, who said "2D, Seems to leave more room than 2S. We can still get into spades if partner has them." And Carl Hudecek who said "2D. Caters to a lot of auctions and does not overstate the heart suit". Maybe R. Wolff said it best, "2D. Least of evils."

I throw 2NT out, singleton club. I throw out 2S, as I save it for a hand with better spades or more strength. So that leaves 2H and 2D. I agree with Mauro that 2H neither promises nor denies extra values, but this hand has GREAT diamond values and I can bid 2D to show something there and wait for parnter to clarify his holding. I would love to hear a 2H or 2S rebid over 2D. I can also handle 3C, 2NT and 3D rebid without having overstated my hand with a reverse on my second bid. To me, 2D seems clear...but the results of htis poll shows me, as always, I am out of that silly iceberg by myself again. I thought more people (aka readers) would go to 2D now... it was 21% in 1988... today it is 3%, and that 3% is me. Oh well.

For the 2H bidders, you are right. To me 2H is much better bid than 2S. If the club and diamond suits were reversed, and partner had responded 2D (I now have a singleton diamond, and 3 clubs to AKx), I would rebid 2H knowing that was the right bid.

Ben

[Chamaco]

inquiry, on Nov 7 2004, 02:56 PM, said:

I agree with the group of experts who, in 1988 said 2D.. People like Larry Cohen, who said "2D, Seems to leave more room than 2S. We can still get into spades if partner has them." And Carl Hudecek who said "2D. Caters to a lot of auctions and does not overstate the heart suit". Maybe R. Wolff said it best, "2D. Least of evils."

I agree that 2D is a reasonable bid, IMO much better than 2S.

As I said, I think opener's rebid should be geared towards describing teh FEATURES of the hand, and not necesarily an extra hcp or 2 , if this has to be done by showing a QTxx suit.

Here, as I wrote in one of the posts, the only feature is the great diamonds controls, so yes, if I have to distort a little the hand, I'd rather bid 2D with AKx.

BTW, if the clubs and diamonds were reversed (the example just given by Ben), I would support partner's clubs (assuming 2C guarantees 5 C) by bidding 3 clubs (not 2H), which show non-minimum hand, and at least Hxx or xxxx support

[luke warm]

The_Hog, on Nov 7 2004, 01:42 PM, said:

Clear cut 2H. 2S bidders do not know how to evaluate a hand.

ron, this is even more interesting given ben's revealing of the '88 bridge world poll... does it mean that, in your opinion, the majority of the world class players who took part do not know how to judge a bridge hand?

btw ben, the percentages don't make sense unless i'm looking at it wrong.. there appear to be 28 total votes cast... if this is so

12 of 28 (43%) voted for 2S (you show 33%)
8 of 28 (29%) voted for 2D (you show 21%)
4 of 28 (14%) voted for 2NT (13), and
4 of 28 (14%) voted for 2H (you show 32%)

have i missed something in my calculations?

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Nov 7 2004, 11:42 AM, said:

Clear cut 2H. 2S bidders do not know how to evaluate a hand.

This kind claim doesnt make much sense.

[inquiry]

luke warm, on Nov 7 2004, 12:19 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Nov 7 2004, 01:42 PM, said:

Clear cut 2H. 2S bidders do not know how to evaluate a hand.

ron, this is even more interesting given ben's revealing of the '88 bridge world poll... does it mean that, in your opinion, the majority of the world class players who took part do not know how to judge a bridge hand?

btw ben, the percentages don't make sense unless i'm looking at it wrong.. there appear to be 28 total votes cast... if this is so

12 of 28 (43%) voted for 2S (you show 33%)
8 of 28 (29%) voted for 2D (you show 21%)
4 of 28 (14%) voted for 2NT (13), and
4 of 28 (14%) voted for 2H (you show 32%)

have i missed something in my calculations?

Your mistake is you didn't read the first part...

The numbers are actual votes by the panel of experts.. the percentages are unrealated to the expert votes. The percentages is what readers did.... (not the panel). I provided both panel's view (circa 1988), and what the general reader was doing.

[the hog]

Yep. This 6 loser hand is not worth a reverse, unless you are playing that 2S shows no extras. (This is a treatment that has no merit whatsoever by the way). Can live with 2D, but prefer not to manufacture suits. Bidding has improved out of sight in the last 10 years, so I would be very surprised if the majority of 2/1 players on the expert panel bid anything other than 2H today.

This is not a debate about Mafia methods, but as an aside, I agree with Nikos in that the Mafia philosophy is excellent. (You should look at it Jimmy.) However even after 2C you will not miss a S fit eg

1H 2C 2H 2S now 3S shows a better hand than 4S in the context of the bidding to date

Without 4S responder can bid a gf waiting 2N bid, or bid 3D with 4 cards there or, (if 3C is still a gf), bid that. wtp?