[gnasher]

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What would you do?

If you double, what do you plan to do if partner bids 3M?

Edit: Matchpoints

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2011-January-21, 07:10

[karlson]

I would double and pass 3M.

[whereagles]

I think I'll stick to a heavy 3♦ overcall. If pard happens to bid 3M over that, I'll be in pretty good shape.

[han]

Double and pass 3M. Close to bidding 3NT over 3M.

[Fluffy]

doubling goes first on the list, most club layout allow them to run clubs on 3NT keeping LHO comunicated, so that's a bad idea IMO.

[jillybean]

Double and tempted to raise 3M to 4

[paulg]

Double and pass at matchpoints. At imps I'd raise.

[pooltuna]

hamman eggs in one basket

[han]

Raising 3M to 4M strikes me as odd. Double followed by 3NT already shows a hand that is interested in playing 4M. If 4M is better we probably get there also by bidding 3NT, but if 3NT is better then we can't get there by raising to 4M.

[mtvesuvius]

Double & Pass 3M from partner, although I'm quite tempted to bid 3N over 3M, it won't work out enough at MPs I think.

[Yogeshdg]

Think I would just bid 3nt over 3clubs.

[Siegmund]

Double and pass. My partners are eager enough to jump to 4M that I am not tempted to go on with just 3 trumps and just a couple extra points.

[kgr]

han, on 2011-January-21, 09:18, said:

Raising 3M to 4M strikes me as odd. Double followed by 3NT already shows a hand that is interested in playing 4M. If 4M is better we probably get there also by bidding 3NT, but if 3NT is better then we can't get there by raising to 4M.

A direct 3NT or a DBL followed by 3NT show the same strength, but the DBL..3NT shows more doubt about 3NT?
Is that standard expert understanding or your agreement?
(I thought a DBL followed by 3NT showed a stronger hand then a direct 3NT)

[gwnn]

yes that's pretty much standard

[gnasher]

Yes, double then 3NT shows doubt, but on what hands is partner expected to remove it?

On this hand, I'd like partner to remove 3NT only if he has a five-card suit, but on another day I might hold a (43)42 19-count. With that hand, I'd like to be able to double and then bid 3NT unless he bids my 4-card major. It woud be nice to think that with 4-4 in the majors he'd then convert to the other major.

What about 4252 with a single club stop, non-solid diamonds, and chunky majors? Now I'd like to be able to get to a 4-4 spade fit, or to a 5-2 heart fit if he has good hearts, but to take my chances in 3NT opposite five moderate hearts. Can I double and bid 3NT on that?

[cherdano]

I think partner will typically remove to 3NT with a 5-card major and no club help, and pass 3NT with 4-4 in the majors.
I think those who raise to 3M bet that even a 4-3 fit will typically play better than 3NT. This is probably right when partner has a doubleton club, but3NT gets an edge from the hands where partner has 3 clubs, and LHO a singleton - so that we can shut out the club suit without ducking.
I would still pass 3M, and still don't know whether to bid 3NT or 4M if I were to bid.

[JLOGIC]

Obviously nothing is perfect, I think it's better to be able to double with some hands that have 3-3 in the majors and some hands that have 4-2 in the majors than to have to overcall 3N with one of those in order to have X then 3N be more defined. You lose too much on whichever you choose to overcall 3N with, imo.

Personally I think partner will be passing with 4-4 in the majors always. You will miss a 4-4 major suit fit when partner bid the major you don't have and you're 4-3 or 4-4, oh well.

Personally I think with a 5 card major partner will use his judgment. He is more likely than not to have a 5-3 fit (with a doubleton major you would often choose to overcall 3N, obviously depends on your hand and 4252 can double), and a 5-2 fit won't always be a disaster, so with 5 good ones he will probably always pull. With 5 weakish ones and some club help/reasonable hand he might pass expecting 3N to be fine and 4M might be worse on a 5-3 anyways.

And sometimes we luck out and partner is 4-5 in the majors and bids 4C and caters to everything.

[jallerton]

JLOGIC, on 2011-January-22, 15:52, said:

Personally I think partner will be passing with 4-4 in the majors always. You will miss a 4-4 major suit fit when partner bid the major you don't have and you're 4-3 or 4-4, oh well.

Always? Surely, if partner is 4=4=4=1 he should be pulling; if we wanted to play in 3NT opposite that, we would have bid it on the first round.

I agree with your other observations. We can't expect to get to the right contract all of the time. That's why the opponents pre-empt.

[FrancesHinden]

Clearly you can't always get to the right game. Even if you define the 'right' game as an 8-card major suit fit if you have one otherwise 3NT, you can't reach all 4-4 fits and all 5-3 fits. I think that exactly 4-4 in the majors opposite is a much smaller target than 5-4, or a 6-card major, so I don't want double-then-3NT to promise the other major.

I basically agree with JLOGIC and jallerton (as you know), but there are a few considerations not yet mentioned:

- How often is partner going to pull a direct 3NT with a 6-card major? If you think it's right to bid a direct 3NT on this type of hand, then I think partner should pull more often than when playing with someone who would double-then-bid-3NT on this hand.

- This is matchpoints. There's obviously more of an upside to double-then-pass-3M, because the immediate 3NT overcall can lead to a seriously large number of overtricks. Not so much an issue at imps (unless they double, but that's fairly rare) but definitely at matchpoints. At imps the worry of missing a making game might balance that risk out. So if you want to make the problem really pure, you should give this hand another high card so it's clear to drive game.

- Sometimes 3NT makes when you have a 9-card major suit fit. Give partner, say, KQ10xxx xxx xxx Q and we'll play in 4S if we double but 3NT if we bid 3NT. This might go off on a heart lead, but they've got so many clubs they are more likely to lead them.

- On some of these problems, the opponents' pre-empt style, vulnerability etc are relevant, because with a 7-card pre-empt on our right, Ax (rather than Kx) might be enough to staunch the suit when thay are 7222 but is less hopeful with 6322.

I was thinking of doing a simulation, giving RHO 7 clubs (for his red pre-empt) and partner 8-12 HCP with a 5- or 6- card major, no second 5-card suit and not a club void. These are the hands that will play 4M if you double, but pass a 3NT overcall (with more HCP I'm assuming everything makes and/or partner starts making slam tries). But then I decided to make a chocolate cake instead.