[hrothgar]

Two hands from last night FOT IMPs tournament

Playing BBO Advanced in an unpracticed partnership:

Hand 1, Both sides Vulnerable

You hold

KJ43
8732
87
KQ8

The auction starts

1C - 1H
2N - ???

What is your rebid?
--------------

Hand 2, White versus Red

You hold

KQ5
J75
T743
J65

The auction starts

(1C) - P - (1H) - 2S
(3C) - ???

What is you're rebid?

[Flame]

1. 3♣ checkback, partner can still have 4 cards in spade. (3d if playing nmf)
2. I would bid 4sp, but 3sp is good too.

[inquiry]

If playing with My regular on line partner, misho, on 1) I would bid 3♦, accepting game try at least in ♥'s, but no interest in slam...because his 2NT jump is Jacboy by opener!!! Wiith my old on-line partner, I would bid 3♣ as checkback as flame recommends. With anonther partner there is no need to checkback, because with big balanced hand including 4♠, they would rebid 1♠ not jump to 2NT. But with a random partner with no specific agreement yoiu got a problem. Would 3♣ be passed? Over 3♦ (NMF) if partner bids 3♠ is that a four card suit or deny 3 ♥ but show good 3♠? Wouild 3♠ be taken as a "reverse". Tis a puzzlement. In hignsight, since this hand has no slam interest, perhaps forget looking for 4-4 ♠ fit by bidding spades, by 3♣ checkback or 3♦ nmf, and just bid 3NT is the best bid.

On the second hand, 4♠ at imps and this vul is more or less automatic. Yes partner is likely to have only 5♠, and you might go down 4... but this is the time to stike.

[Gerben47]

1. Stayman, NMF, anything to find out if partner has 4 cards in spades. With a pickup partner I'd bid 3♦. Over 3♥ I bid 3♠, over 3♠ I bid 4♠, over 3NT I pass.

2. 4♠ - charge! No idea how much opponents can make. If we go down 4 that might still be good if it's slam for them.

[mishovnbg]

1. 3NT playing with Ben, he will rebid 1♠ instead of 2NT if he have 4 cards there. By the way in french std system 2NT also deny 4♠. With pick up p I will bid 3♠ - best natural picture of my hand, can help p to make right decision.
2. Pass playing with Ben - his bid include my support as level of preempt already, following R/S style. I will raise p only with 4 card support + side shortness - something that he can't know. Bidding 4♠ without right distribution for sacrifice can only push opps to nice slam...

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[helium]

1: 3 nt
2: pass

kenneth

[hrothgar]

On hand two, I think that Misho hits the nail right on the head.

I was the 2S bidder. When I made the 2S jump overcall, I had already anticipated partner's likely Spade holding when judging the level of my preempt.

From my perspective, the hand in question doesn't contain anyhting special

KQ5
J75
T743
J65

The hand has good primary trump support making it more difficult to make a penalty double. Balanced against this, the shape is terrible and the hand is strongly defensively oriented.

Personally, I don't think that the hand has sufficient "unexpected" values to warrant a raise. With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

so its not like I'm blameless in what transpired...

[mpefritz]

Hand 1: 3♦. BBO Advanced, which you stated you are playing, uses Wolff signoffs. After 3♦, 3NT denies 3H and 4S. 3♠ shows 4 spades, but might have 3 hearts. 3♥ shows 3 hearts and denies 4 spades. However, if you think there will be a bidding screw up, then 3NT over 2NT (and explain to partner that you weren't sure of the follow ups ).

I believe 3♣ forces 3♦. After that 3NT is slammish in clubs. In any case, bidding 3♣ would be highly non-systemic.

Hand 2: 3♠ to steal a little space without asking for -1,000,000 Also, perhaps their side might play me for a little more, because I didn't jump to 4S.

fritz

[Shrike]

I'm with mpefritz, but want to add re the first hand:

1) playing with an unknown partner in flight A at a US tournament, I would guess Wolff Signoff and bid 3D NMF. 3S rebid by partner will be a suit from most players.

2) playing with an unknown partner not necessarily flight A, 3C could get passed and 3S could be perceived as a natural reverse. 3D will never be passed, and usually get you to the right contract.

So 3D looks best even if you don't know whether it's sytemically right.

[mpefritz]

The only problems with 3♦ "NMF" are:

1) Your partner feels NMF at this level is still JUST "invitational" and decides to bid 4♥ with 3 card support and a max hand, instead of 3♥ which here is still forcing. Why someone would feel that way is unclear, but it could happen. Maybe he feels 2NT denies spades and therefore NMF is only asking for heart support.

2) Some people play the only forcing bid here is 3♣, so 3♦ might be passed?

just some thoughts that run through my head as I try to make calls with a new partner...But again, the question is not with a random partner playing some random system, but "Playing BBO Advanced in an unpracticed partnership". Therefore 3♦ is a systemic no-brainer.

fritz

[Flame]

hrothgar, on Apr 4 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

OMG
I can't believe how far people streach the prempltive bids.
This hand has nothing to do with a prempltive weak jump.
not a long suit. balanced
not a one suiter.
bad ODR
Ace in the suit and lower honors in the outside suits.
I'm sorry but if you were my partner this hand was probebly our last one together.
why dont you double with such a hand.

[inquiry]

Flame, on Apr 4 2004, 09:19 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 4 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

OMG
I can't believe how far people streach the prempltive bids.
This hand has nothing to do with a prempltive weak jump.
not a long suit. balanced
not a one suiter.
bad ODR
Ace in the suit and lower honors in the outside suits.
I'm sorry but if you were my partner this hand was probebly our last one together.
why dont you double with such a hand.

I was Richard's partner on both of these hands. We don't play the same system, and we are not regular partners. In fact, I think this is only second time we played together. We had no specific agreements other than basic 2/1 GF.

On hand two, any one who has played with me very much would know not to raise even to the three level if I had made that jump overcall. I use the rule 5431 rule. 5431 rule means I am within 5 tricks of my contract when we are white and they are red, 4 tricks when both white, 3 tricks both red, and when we are red and they are white, 1 trick of the bid. So at favorable vulnerabilty like this, my jump overcalls to 2♠ is probaly a five card suit but 5 or 6 I am despirately weak. Notice Misho's comments that he would pass 2♠ if he played with me. He knows me well. But opposite a more sane partner, this hand is surely worth at raise. Looking at Richard's hand, maybe he is more wacky than me. Maybe not for making the jump overcall on that hand, but for posting my responding hand to show how wrong it is to raise with it. But I will say this for the 2♠ bid, it showed creativity. And note, I did not call the TD and ask to be replaced, and yes, I will play with him again... I will just be careful when he preempts... as people have to do when playing with me.

Ben

(Note, opposite a passed hand, my non-vul versus vul psyches sometimes turn out to be surprisingly strong rather than despirately weak... so as to mix it up.

[cnszsun]

mpefritz, on Apr 4 2004, 05:09 PM, said:

After 3♦, 3NT denies 3H and 4S.  3♠ shows 4 spades, but might have 3 hearts.  3♥ shows 3 hearts and denies 4 spades. 

I play 3♦ and 3♣ the same as you here, but after 3♦ i played it like this: 3♥ shows 3 hearts and might have 4 spades, so responder can bid 3♠ to inquiry it. 3♠ shows 4 spades and denies 3 hearts.

[Shrike]

mpefritz, on Apr 4 2004, 08:02 PM, said:

The only problems with 3♦ "NMF" are:

1) Your partner feels NMF at this level is still JUST "invitational" and decides to bid 4♥ with 3 card support and a max hand, instead of 3♥ which here is still forcing.  Why someone would feel that way is unclear, but it could happen.  Maybe he feels 2NT denies spades and therefore NMF is only asking for heart support.

2) Some people play the only forcing bid here is 3♣, so 3♦ might be passed?

You're correct, of course, but in my opinon, in practice 3D will be safe even if undiscussed. Even when partner thanks it's passable, he won't risk it undiscussed. And yes, he might jump to the 4-level, but I'm guessing not, assuming you know he's reasonably experienced. Playing with a complete unknown, with no discussion, 3NT is the winner; if you each know the system, and know you know it, then make the system bid. I'm saying that the middle ground exists, and I believe 3D occupies it.

My analysis applies only in the millieu in which I play a lot: face to face, in North America. I also meant it only for tournament play; at a club I bid 3NT. But then, at a club I bid 1S the first time.

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------

Hi all!

Spoiler

--------

Some comments about 3♦ NMF (1). I don't believe that any pickup p will pass 3♦ bid, except beginner, what to say about bidding expert like Richard. But! Usage of conventions and any artifical bids have only one target - to reach right contract. 3♦ is right bid here, but do you really like it? You can receive lead directing double and this can be only lead to go down at 3NT. Don't say that after 3♠ bid is same, ♥ lead can be better for example. 3♠ bid is better than 3♦ also because it show to p type of your hand - you prefer to play trump contract. It is true that p will suppose 5+♥-4+♠, but I can approximate my hand to such one because ♣ support and fill. Only disadvantage of 3♠ bid are bad ♥, but I can't have honours anywhere with relative weak hand as responder of very strong bal hand. Even my p take my bid as reverse, he must bid 3NT with enough stoppers in ♦, because with slam interest I will continue at 4 level describing hand, if his duplication in ♦ is not obstacle for me. Shortly 3♠ is better bid, instead of unwise usage of convention with pickup p.

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[hrothgar]

Flame, on Apr 5 2004, 05:19 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 4 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

OMG
I can't believe how far people streach the prempltive bids.
This hand has nothing to do with a prempltive weak jump.
not a long suit. balanced
not a one suiter.
bad ODR
Ace in the suit and lower honors in the outside suits.
I'm sorry but if you were my partner this hand was probebly our last one together.
why dont you double with such a hand.

>I can't believe how far people streach the premptive bids.
>This hand has nothing to do with a premptive weak jump.
>not a long suit. balanced
>not a one suiter.

What does a single suited hand have to do with preempting?
I would happily open the hand in question with 2Ds.
Don't see anything wrong with a 2S weak jump overcall ;-)

In all seriousness

I am a firm believer in so-called assumed fit preemptive styles.
Plaeyer's should immediately bid their hands to their expected limit ASSUMING that partner has an average hand for the auction so far.

This places MUCH more pressure on the opponents, however, it requires that partner is on the same wavelength and won't take action with an average hand. Extremel version of pre-balancing, thats all...

[luis]

hrothgar, on Apr 5 2004, 10:00 PM, said:

Flame, on Apr 5 2004, 05:19 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 4 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

OMG
I can't believe how far people streach the prempltive bids.
This hand has nothing to do with a prempltive weak jump.
not a long suit. balanced
not a one suiter.
bad ODR
Ace in the suit and lower honors in the outside suits.
I'm sorry but if you were my partner this hand was probebly our last one together.
why dont you double with such a hand.

>I can't believe how far people streach the premptive bids.
>This hand has nothing to do with a premptive weak jump.
>not a long suit. balanced
>not a one suiter.

What does a single suited hand have to do with preempting?
I would happily open the hand in question with 2Ds.
Don't see anything wrong with a 2S weak jump overcall ;-)

In all seriousness

I am a firm believer in so-called assumed fit preemptive styles.
Plaeyer's should immediately bid their hands to their expected limit ASSUMING that partner has an average hand for the auction so far.

This places MUCH more pressure on the opponents, however, it requires that partner is on the same wavelength and won't take action with an average hand. Extremel version of pre-balancing, thats all...

IMO a 2s bid with this hand is a gamble, you are free to gamble whenever you want bt I really believe that you will be having more bad results than good results using this style.

[inquiry]

luis, on Apr 6 2004, 07:32 AM, said:

IMO a 2s bid with this hand is a gamble, you are free to gamble whenever you want bt I really believe that you will be having more bad results than good results using this style.

Playing not only with a pickup partner, but a pickup partner who was me, I guess Richard figured the only way to win was to take gambles. Sometimes, masterminding the hands is the only hope one see's when looking across the table at weak player like me.

Ben

[Flame]

hrothgar, on Apr 5 2004, 05:00 PM, said:

Flame, on Apr 5 2004, 05:19 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Apr 4 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

With this said and done, my weak jump overcall was based on

A982
K8
Q986
843

OMG
I can't believe how far people streach the prempltive bids.
This hand has nothing to do with a prempltive weak jump.
not a long suit. balanced
not a one suiter.
bad ODR
Ace in the suit and lower honors in the outside suits.
I'm sorry but if you were my partner this hand was probebly our last one together.
why dont you double with such a hand.

>I can't believe how far people streach the premptive bids.
>This hand has nothing to do with a premptive weak jump.
>not a long suit. balanced
>not a one suiter.

What does a single suited hand have to do with preempting?
I would happily open the hand in question with 2Ds.
Don't see anything wrong with a 2S weak jump overcall ;-)

In all seriousness

I am a firm believer in so-called assumed fit preemptive styles.
Plaeyer's should immediately bid their hands to their expected limit ASSUMING that partner has an average hand for the auction so far.

This places MUCH more pressure on the opponents, however, it requires that partner is on the same wavelength and won't take action with an average hand. Extremel version of pre-balancing, thats all...

Maybe you are a new player but not so long ago prempltives were done on one good suiter hands like - KQ10XXX and QJ10xxx being the worse.
I agree that this method isnt necassrly the best, but that was a premptive, now people starting to streach it and your example is the least premptive hand i have seen so far.
There are few things i can say to axplain why this is imo wrong
1. premptive in your way is no longer showing a suit to lead.
2. you have large duplication with other bids, in this example , 1h and Double and pass , would all be far more suitable for your hand then 2h (imo).
3. the risk of being double, you may say "who double a 2 level these day ?"
for that i have 2 answers:
A. when u bid 2h with your hand, you will bid 3h with little more and 4h with little more then that, or else p will not know what you have, and therefore if not on the 2 level, you will get double on the three/four level.
B. today most peple use lots of TO doubles, this is called the modrn way, the resson this TO approach took the place of the PDs is because our opponents didnt give us good PD appotiunites, they used to premptive with good 6 card on level 2 and good 7 card on level 3. now when the premptives are getting more and more agressive, it will take time, but i believe people will start using more PDs. (and then people will go back to be more concervative and so on).

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on Apr 6 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

Playing not only with a pickup partner, but a pickup partner who was me, I guess Richard figured the only way to win was to take gambles. Sometimes, masterminding the hands is the only hope one see's when looking across the table at weak player like me.

Ben

Ben, with all due respect, we had already suffered a series of atrocious boards based on what I consider to be ridiculous/unilateral actions on your part.

Opening 3S in first seat on

JTxxx
x
xxx
Jxxx

Lost us a ton of IMPs

-------------

Your decision to rebid 3S after 2NT holding a 4-4-2-3 pattern lead me to completely misjudge the offensive potential of my own control rich 4=3=3=3 20 count with AQx in Hearts and Top honors in Spades.

-----------

Making a VULNERABLE direct seat double of the opponent's 3D opening holding (I believe) a 3=4=2=4 13 count seems unexplicable.

Please don't accuse me of "masterminding" hands.