[inquiry]

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ J2 ♥ AK732 ♦ AT93 ♣ J2

West North East South
 -     -     Pass  1♥
 Pass  1♠    Pass  2♦
 Pass  3♣!   Pass  3♥
 Pass  5♥    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

You are playing with a HIGHLY qualified partner (ok me), and you hear this exciting auction, which you have not specifically discussed.

Let’s cover what the bidding means to date.
1) 3♣ was fourth suit forcing
2) 3♥ showed not a lot extra
3) 5♥ is not “forcing” but partner could have bid some other ways (4NT, 4H, 3S followed by 5♥, 4♣ followed by 5♥.

The question might should bex what do you bid, but a question I ask is what is partner looking for?

Is he looking for a ♣ control (the unbid suit, if you disregard the 4th suit forcing bid). Jumps to 5 of agreed trump suit with specifically one unbid suit or one un-cue bid suit often means this.

Is he looking for good hearts for slam (and if so is the “good hearts for this auction)? With two or more unbid or un-cuebid suits, a leap to five often looks for good trumps.

Is he establishing trumps and offering a quantitative raise, and looking for slam if you have a good hand for the auction so far?

I will not bore you with whether south should bid 6♥ or pass, it is really immaterial. I was wondering how people would interpret the jump to 5♥. I think systemically with the particular partner I was playing with at the time, I didn’t bid my hand correctly from the other side of the table anyway.

[the hog]

I suggest that this should ask for good trumps. In my pd it does. To a large extent I have already denied a C control with my failure to bid NT, rebid D to show a 5-5 or bid S to suggest a 3541.

[Flame]

I'll take that as a general slam offer, i dont think it can be taken for anything specific because the alternatives 3sp and 4c arent clear (those are natural bids)

[Free]

I take it as small slam try (5NT would be grand slam try). If you have good trumps (and this depends on what you agree) you should bid 6♥, otherwise pass. With this hand a 6♥ is obligated imo.

I'm just afraid it's going to be exclusion blackwood, otherwise you wouldn't ask this Ben

[luis]

inquiry, on Apr 7 2004, 02:32 AM, said:

Dealer: East Vul: EW Scoring: IMP

♠ J2 ♥ AK732 ♦ AT93 ♣ J2

West North East South
- - Pass 1♥
Pass 1♠ Pass 2♦
Pass 3♣! Pass 3♥
Pass 5♥ Pass Pass
Pass

You are playing with a HIGHLY qualified partner (ok me), and you hear this exciting auction, which you have not specifically discussed.

Let’s cover what the bidding means to date.
1) 3♣ was fourth suit forcing
2) 3♥ showed not a lot extra
3) 5♥ is not “forcing” but partner could have bid some other ways (4NT, 4H, 3S followed by 5♥, 4♣ followed by 5♥.

The question might should bex what do you bid, but a question I ask is what is partner looking for?

Is he looking for a ♣ control (the unbid suit, if you disregard the 4th suit forcing bid). Jumps to 5 of agreed trump suit with specifically one unbid suit or one un-cue bid suit often means this.

Is he looking for good hearts for slam (and if so is the “good hearts for this auction)? With two or more unbid or un-cuebid suits, a leap to five often looks for good trumps.

Is he establishing trumps and offering a quantitative raise, and looking for slam if you have a good hand for the auction so far?

I will not bore you with whether south should bid 6♥ or pass, it is really immaterial. I was wondering how people would interpret the jump to 5♥. I think systemically with the particular partner I was playing with at the time, I didn’t bid my hand correctly from the other side of the table anyway.

Can't be asking for a club control because 3s would be the right bid to see if I can bid 4c or not.
I don't think this is asking for good trumps either because we don't know yet about number of controls or aces, It would be a too unilateral bid.
So I think this is just a mild slam invitation.

[joker_gib]

Well, I suppose that 3♥ on 2♦ should be non forcing (which is not the case in my partnership) !

That's the problem because after the 4th suit, you don't have any bid to show the ♥ fit and slam interest ! (3♠ = 6 spades, 4♣= clubs, 4♦=♦fit, 4♥ is stop and 4NT would not be RKCB because there isn't any fit !)

So the only bid remaining to show slam interest is 5♥ ! (and I will accept because of AK and ♦ Ace)

[inquiry]

There seems to be two camps in the replies so far...

1) 5♥ is a general slam try, or
2) 5♥ is slam try looking for good ♥'s.

Truth be told, I meant 5♥ as the first case. A general slam try.

To be fair to my partber, I held a similar hand to the one I held this time, and I used a creative 4NT response to his 1M opening bid. We played that as showing showing balanced hand, 17/19 hcp, 3 card support and not forcing. That time, over 4NT, I learned about keycards and we got too high. He then suggested that I simply use 2NT for such hands.

So this time I was about to bid 2NT over 1♥, when I discovered that I had a GREAT four card ♠ suit. So I decided 1) not to jump 4NT, and 2) not to bid 2NT, but rather show my ♠. Over 2♦, as joker points out, 3♥ by me is non-forcing, so know with my balanced, super 18 hcp, I am forced to bid 3♣ to establish a force, and now over 3♥, I am in somewhat of a pickle. My options seem to be....

1) 4♥, but I am too strong for such signoff
2) 4NT - ok, I think this should probably be quantitative. Since 3♠ here is forcing, 4♠ could be used as kickback agreeing ♥'s
3) 3♠ should be real ♠,
4) 4[cll] should be real ♣, or fit, and slam interest (since 3NT is avaible)
5) So it seemed to me that 5♥ here was "general" invite based upon power.

My concern is that partner would take 5♥ for bid slam with ♣ control. And to Ron, partner clearly lacks ♣A or K, but he could have a stiff, so this was real concern of mine.

I don't mind my partner's pass. In highnsight, starting with 2NT (limit +) would have easily found our way to 6♥ after partner showed real game going values, and to FREE, what kind of EXCLUSION blackwood could 5♥ be?

Ben

[Free]

I don't agree with you Joker, 4♣ doesn't show ♣ imo...

And I also don't agree with Luis this time. Opener showed minimum 2 times, so why would you show mild slam interest if you know he's minimum??

[joker_gib]

Free, on Apr 7 2004, 10:14 AM, said:

I don't agree with you Joker, 4♣ doesn't show ♣ imo...

And I also don't agree with Luis this time. Opener showed minimum 2 times, so why would you show mild slam interest if you know he's minimum??

As Ben pointed out 4♣ can also be cue bid with ♥ fit but it's becoming very ambiguous and you don't have room anymore to show that fit !

By the way, Free, if 4♣ is not ♣ how do you show ♣ ??

I don't know where opener showed minimum 2 times ? (bids can go from 11 to 15/16 HCP I think !)

[luis]

Free, on Apr 7 2004, 03:14 PM, said:

I don't agree with you Joker, 4♣ doesn't show ♣ imo...

And I also don't agree with Luis this time. Opener showed minimum 2 times, so why would you show mild slam interest if you know he's minimum??

Exactly because he is minimum Free, quantitative slam invitations must be done over limited hands or else you wouldn't know if you can win 7.
Since opener twice limited his hand I think it is sensible to play 5h as a slam try.
For example:

xx
AKxxx
Axxx
xx

is better than

Ax
KJxxx
Qxxx
Qx

Since pd may have something like:

KQJxx
Qxx
Kxx
AKxx

Can you win 7? No because pd can't have sA, hAK, dA for his minimum. Can you win 6? Yes you can but note that you are laydonw in 6 with hand 1 (11HCP) and not with hand 2 (12 HCP). So this is not about point but about controls and location of honors.

[inquiry]

For what is worth, I think Luis pegged what I had in mind with my jump to 5♥'s exactly, an invintaional slam try. I am not so sure what "mild" part of that meant, I guess it is mild because I expect my partner to pass around half the time, maybe more on this auction. That is, I could have bid more strongly with really good slam try in ♥, including starting with 2NT instead of 1♠. So "mild' is probably a fair characterization.

Ben

[luke warm]

i kibbed this hand (surprised eh? *grin)... i remember thinking 'oh crap, if he didn't have those nice spades'... it made the bidding harder, strangely nuff

[mishovnbg]

Spoiler

---------------------------------------------

Hia all!

Right bids on 3/4th suit imo:

1♥-1♠, 2♦-3♣{4thsgf}, ?

3♦: 12-14hcp, deny ♣ stopper or 3♠
3♥: 15-17hcp, deny ♣ stopper or 3♠
3♠: 12-14hcp, 3♠
3NT: 12-15hcp, ♣ stopper
4♣: 15-17hcp, singleton/void ♣
4♦: 15-17hcp, 5+♥-5+♦
4♥: 15-17hcp, 6+♥-4+♦
4♠: 15-17hcp, 3♠
4NT: 16-17hcp, ♣ stopper

You need above bids all time when p is very unlimited like in sequence in example, because 2♦ doesn't show min, it only denied gf. (By the way Ben, are we playng here 2♦ as NMF by opener here or not?). 3♥ bid was mistake and whatever 5♥ means, I will pass, but in this sequence 5♥ is quantitive imho.
About obove sequence is important to agree with p only 2 things:
1. 4th suit at 4 level is all time singleton/void in 4th suit (4♣ in example).
2. When p is relative unlimited, cheapest rebid in both bidded suits deny fit and stopper and cheaper from them show min(3♦ in example), while other show max(3♥ in example) and both bids doesn't show any additional distribution or quality of suits.

Continuations on nebulous 3♦/3♥:

3♥: support, slam interest
3♠: ♠ 1 suiter, slam interest
3NT: Try to find semi stopper in p (Qx or Jxx)
4♣: artifical forcing, asks for game preference, 4NT later will be RBW
4♦: support, slam interest
4♥: to play
4♠: to play ( I don't play kickback nor kickforward nor any other kicks, like 4130, 102, 3.14, 2.71... )
4NT: quantitive
5♣/♦: quantitive, promise ♣ control with ♦
5♥/♠: quantitive, promise ♣ control

Why I don't play any "kicks" (don't like minorwood too, sorry Ben)?

IMHO is ridiculous to use "stone age" natural system and to fill memory with conventions useful for 1 of 1000(0000) boards. Much better is to use available memory for improvements of competitive bidding for example.

Spoiler

------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Apr 8 2004, 04:50 AM, said:

Right bids on 3/4th suit imo:

1♥-1♠, 2♦-3♣{4thsgf}, ? SNIP...

GACK... .more stuff to memorize/think about. As usual, there is little to say about your suggestion misho, it looks very workable and useful. I guess a true fourth suit forcing (2nd round by responder in fourth suit), opener will always be "relatively unlimited" so I don't understand that restrictive phrase... and after opener leaps in new suit to show extra values, I don't treat fourth suit by responder as "fourth suit forcing" anyway, since the auction is forced.

Ben

[Fluffy]

I like to disagree with the majority and vote for the lack of ♣ control.

Asks for H honors? key card blackwood already does that for it so there is no point on wasting another bid on same purpose.

Why didn´t ask for ♣ control with 3♠?, just look at this deal, after 3♠ we would cuebid 4♦ because we like to play 6♠!, will we be wise enough to think 4♥ not ot be singleton/void?, guess if you didn´t had both honors.....

Just an invitational? I think 4♥ after 3♥ should be a 15-17 hand with ♥ support due to the failure to bid 4♥ before.

[mishovnbg]

inquiry, on Apr 8 2004, 04:42 PM, said:

mishovnbg, on Apr 8 2004, 04:50 AM, said:

Right bids on 3/4th suit imo:

1♥-1♠, 2♦-3♣{4thsgf}, ? SNIP...

GACK... .more stuff to memorize/think about. As usual, there is little to say about your suggestion misho, it looks very workable and useful. I guess a true fourth suit forcing (2nd round by responder in fourth suit), opener will always be "relatively unlimited" so I don't understand that restrictive phrase... and after opener leaps in new suit to show extra values, I don't treat fourth suit by responder as "fourth suit forcing" anyway, since the auction is forced.

Ben

Spoiler

--------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

-------

Need to say it is not my invention, but uncle Bill's stuff. Why restriction about "unlimited"? Because scheme is applicable anywhere in 2/3 new suit auctions with some additions and corrections.

Example for "relative limited opener" auctions:

1♥-1♠, 3♣-3♦{4th suit}, ?

3♥: deny ♦ stopper or 3♠
3♠: 3♠
3NT: ♦ stopper
4♣: 5+♥-5+♣, good suits
4♦: sinngleton/void ♦
4♥: 6+♥ good suit-4♦
4♠: 3=6=4=0

Spoiler

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Misho