[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Apr 9 2008, 01:41 AM, said:

2) I don't mind if my partner wants to save with this hand.

Auction goes:

(1NT) 2NT (3♠) P
(4♠) -P- -P-

Would you seriously consider bidding 5♦ with the following?

xxx
xxx
QTxx
QJx

I wouldn't, and yet it's probably only down 2, a good save at equal vulnerability. Anything partner would actually save with is likely to be a very good save.

The way I play a 2NT overcall, partner has already bid over the 3S bid on this hand.

And anyway the opponents are cold for slam (and responder seems to have a lot of major suit cards and a lot of HCP so I don't entirely understand the suggested auction).

But of course if partner has a big fit for a minor then you probably want to be bidding (as long as you don't push them into a making contract they would otherwise not have bid or gone off in).

It's the fact that they can take their 800 penalty against their 400 game fairly easily that puts us off bidding. Unless the opponents don't know what they are doing, this is a hugely easy auction to extract a penalty on. Responder can double 2NT to show a good hand, and now they are in a forcing pass auction. Compare that with an opening pre-empt where 2nd seat has no way to show a penalty double.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Apr 8 2008, 07:53 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Apr 8 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

Worst case, they get an extra trick because I've given them extra information.

You gloss over this like it's not important. It's....big font coming....HUUUGE.

I think that wrongsiding the contract is bigger. If I'm playing against people where a 2NT won't slow them down or wrongside the contract, then I'm not going to bid 2NT.

I think you underestimate how badly a 2NT call can throw intermediate opponents off their game, because, well, you don't play intermediate opponents much. If you're playing with a schmoe client, and you open 1NT, LHO bids 2NT and your partner goes into the tank, are you thinking "oh good" or "oh *****".

Quote

You also seriously underestimate the penalty you could go for on the three level. Just how many tricks do you expect to take if partner is 2-2 in the minors?

It does happen. But the theory is that when you have a 5-5 or longer, your odds of having a fit are very high. It's the same odds that are being used to bid Michaels over 1♠. Yeah, sure, sometimes you have trouble, but not very often. As long as we have a fit, 2NT won't go for much.

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 9 2008, 07:22 AM, said:

The way I play a 2NT overcall, partner has already bid over the 3S bid on this hand.

And anyway the opponents are cold for slam (and responder seems to have a lot of major suit cards and a lot of HCP so I don't entirely understand the suggested auction).

Cold for slam?

---

They'll be lucky to make 5.

The way it's played around here, 3♠ is game forcing, and 4♠ shows decent spades but a minimum. That may be the confusion.

[Apollo81]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 9 2008, 08:17 AM, said:

I would pass over 1NT at any vulnerability (I voted days ago before all these maniac bidders started posting).

I would pass over a 1M opening at any vulnerability as well.

You'd even pass at favorable if they opened your singleton? I would at least try 2N in that situation if not in any other.

[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Apr 9 2008, 10:27 AM, said:

I think you underestimate how badly a 2NT call can throw intermediate opponents off their game, because, well, you don't play intermediate opponents much.   If you're playing with a schmoe client, and you open 1NT, LHO bids 2NT and your partner goes into the tank, are you thinking "oh good" or "oh *****". 

The conditions of contest were Flt A GNT, presumably, given the time of year, the District Finals. Now, Flight A is probably not the top bracket... at least in our District Flt A is the second tier, and, while I don't play that Flight, I do know some players who do. They are not the best players in the event... but they are generally better than most of the BBO 'experts' and will have several thousand masterpoints.. the upper limit is 5,000. So I think it is wrong to answer the poll based on what you'd do against intermediate opps. And, at this level, the opps are certainly good enough to start with double a lot of the time, over 2N. And, if that happens, you have (almost certainly) generated a losing position.

As for disrupting the auction of weak opps, my view is that, if we are significantly better players, why randomize the results? The most probable scenario for us losing is that we give them some free shots. The OP said this was the KO stage, so we aren't worried about piling up the VPs.. we just want to win.

Frankly, 2N is the kind of bid I might consider if we were either significantly outgunned by the opps or losing big with one set to go. It may win a bunch of imps, but will more often lose a bunch. So I haul it out when the cost of losing is largely irrelevant.

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Apr 9 2008, 04:37 PM, said:

The way it's played around here, 3♠ is game forcing, and 4♠ shows decent spades but a minimum. That may be the confusion.

Yes, i agree that's what 3S and 4S mean.
But why would I bid 3S on a 5422 game force over a 2NT bid?
That looks like an obvious double (in case partner wants to defend) followed by a take-out double of their suit.

Make responder 6412 and yes, cold for slam - in hearts.

Now, it's certainly true that overcalling 2NT and pre-empting in diamonds is going to make it seriously tough to get there, in that sense any time you bid 2NT and you have a fit you are going to be right to bid.

[jtfanclub]

mikeh, on Apr 9 2008, 11:00 AM, said:

So I think it is wrong to answer the poll based on what you'd do against intermediate opps. And, at this level, the opps are certainly good enough to start with double a lot of the time, over 2N. And, if that happens, you have (almost certainly) generated a losing position.

I don't think starting with an X is a losing proposition (it depends on their followups), but I will agree that the venue should have influenced my comments. I know that the people in the Finals of the Flight B and Flight C NAPs couldn't handle it properly even with starting with an X. I wasn't aware that Flight A was that much better.

So I apologize, you are correct. I was answering the poll generically, not based on the venue.

Quote

As for disrupting the auction of weak opps, my view is that, if we are significantly better players, why randomize the results?

Because at best I'm at the low edge of Advanced. The people who can't handle 2NT properly are not 'weak opps' from my standpoint, they are my peers.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Apr 9 2008, 11:21 AM, said:

Because at best I'm at the low edge of Advanced. The people who can't handle 2NT properly are not 'weak opps' from my standpoint, they are my peers.

Ok it's settled. Bid 2NT against you.

[awm]

A sort of random question on this....

Suppose you had a natural 2♦ overcall available. Would you be tempted to bid it?

I would. This call seems a lot less risky than 2NT (you are a level lower). And it interferes with opponents stayman/transfer methods. You will often get them playing 4M from the "wrong side" if they play standard stuff (lebensohl etc) and you will also get partner to push a diamond through notrump opener at trick one (probably a nice lead). This seems a lot more appealing than being on lead with my hand against 4M (especially if it's my singleton major). And there is still some chance to find a good sacrifice if you have one, and if LHO makes a resounding penalty double you can maybe run to 3♣. The 2♦ bid also doesn't help as much in placing cards in the play (opponents know only one suit, not two, and can't guess the major suit breaks so well, and may in fact play you for more cards including some major suit honor for the overcall).

Anyways, as to bidding 2NT I would probably do it at favorable but I'm passing at all white. Same applies if they open my singleton major.

[skjaeran]

I'd pass with this, then again, I've never played 2NT as minors over 1NT.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would bid 2NT, unless red vs. green,
we dont play DONT.

But bidding is agressive, and it is a matter
of style / experience.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If I played DONT, I would bid even red vs.
green.