[jillybean]

I've been playing 12-14 NT for a while now and I adopted an approach where 1m:1M 1nt shows 15-17 and 1♥:1♠ 1NT is a weak NT hand with 5 hearts, without a redbid.

I see a number of people opening 2533 1NT (12-14), what is the latest expert approach to these hands?

Thanks

[TMorris]

Not an expert but it is more and more common in the UK for those playing a weak nt to open 1nt on any such hand even with a 5 card major. An expert I play with does this all the time and I am doing so more than I used to. Classically it was always done with a poor suit eg 5 small but less so with a decent suit.

It solves all rebid problems but of course may miss a 5-3 (or indeed 5 4) major fit.

Personally I look at my hand type before deciding. Aces and Kings I tend towards the major, queens and Jacks a nt bid. Also doing so with hearts preempts an opposition spade bid but not of course vice versa so this is worth considering.

[TMorris]

A couple of examples from yesterday as it happens. Partner pened 1nt on both

AKx
AKxxx
xx
xxx

This is a clear 1H opening for me

xx
AQ9xx
Axx
A10x

This is borderline for me between 1nt and 1h.

Partner however is a hand hogger so will open 1nt on almost anything as it ensure he plays the hand.

On the 1st one we missed a 5 4 heart fit where many bid and made game although it is off double dummy but the lead needed to defeat it is unlikely unless you know the hand.

On the second one we missed a 5 3 heart fit but the 5 2 spade fit was ok although on best defence which is rather hard to find (and we didnt get) it plays a trick worse.

[jillybean]

Thanks, on these hands how do you continue after 1H 1S ?

[helene_t]

It makes perfect sense to play the 1NT rebid as 12-14, if 5H(332) with that strength is allowed in a 1♥ opening.
You might consider making the 1NT rebid a bit wider, say 12-15 or 12-16, with a checkback structure that allows you to stop in 2♥ even if opener has 3-card spade support. Maybe something like
1♥-1♠
1NT-2♣
?
2♦=minimum, two spades
2♥=minimum, three spades
2♠=intermediate, three spades
2NT=intermediate, two spades

[Douglas43]

My personal rule of thumb is to open 1♥ with KQ10xx or better (3 of top 5, including 2 of top 3). I also upgrade to 1♥ and rebid 1NT with a good 14 (playing a 15-17 rebid). Not claiming any great authority in the matter but it's probably a fairly simple MOR Acol style.

[TylerE]

I'm strongly in the camp of 1N on 5M hands regardless of range. Maybe not if playing 10-12. It frees up your rebid structure so much when you don't have to worry about that hand being in 1H. 1M essentially becomes unbalanced or strong.

[DavidKok]

I don't know what the experts do. When I played 12-14 NT for a while we played 1♥-1♠; 1NT as 12-14, and we would choose which to open based on suit quality. With a semiforcing notrump there are no rebid issues opening 1♥ with a weak notrump hand on 1♥-1NT (you pass) or 1♥-2♣/2♦ game forcing (you rebid 2NT, though make sure to discuss that). In addition we are bidding 3cm suits with a strong notrump hand with a 5cM on 1♥-1NT and 1♠-1NT anyway, so we kept that structure over 1♥-1♠.
Going the other way seems equally playable, and is what I recommend in strong notrump structures, especially when learning a new system. Just folding the 5M332 hands within range into the 1NT opening simplifies the rebid structure over 1M with little to no cost. I consider the ability to open 1M with those hands instead somewhat of a luxury. If your bidding system supports it by all means go for it, but it might take good agreements on the continuations.

[mikeh]

I currently play, in one partnership, 11-13 1N nv. I’ve played 10-12, 11-13, 11-14 as well as 14-16 and 15-17.

In all of these we readily open 1N with 5332, 5 hearts.

We do upgrade out of range frequently and one of the factors we consider is a reasonable 5 card suit. So a good 13 with a couple of tens and a five card suit, including hearts, gets upgraded into 1H, but that’s simply hand evaluation rather than concern about the major.

We do play a structure which allows, when responder has a balanced or semi balanced gf hand, for responder to ask about shape and hence discover the hearts (or spades), which is actually something we can’t do after a strong 1N.

We occasionally play 1N when 2H would be better, but sometimes that’s still ok since the 1N opening may preempt the opps who own the hand. It’s a lot easier to overcall 1S after a 1H opening than it is to bid over 1N….that’s true for all suits the opps may hold. So even when the 5H 1N leads to a theoretically poor contract, in real life it often works very well…not to mention that the opps are not leading nor defending double dummy very often

[jillybean]

Thanks all.

Mike, what does your check back structure look like? I'm not likely to adopt it but it would be good to see.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 14:09, said:

Thanks all.

Mike, what does your check back structure look like? I'm not likely to adopt it but it would be good to see.

It’s completely artificial

1N 2D is an artificial gf.

2H denies hearts, may have spades

2S denies spades, shows 4+ hearts

2N shows 5+ clubs

3C shows 5+ diamonds

3D shows 4=4 majors

3H shows 2245

3S shows 2254

Over 2S, 2N relays

3C shows 4=4 reds

3D shows hearts and clubs

3H is not permitted

3S shows 5H

3N is 3433

The idea is that responder will usually have the stronger hand, and thus should be declarer in game or slam. Also, since responder isn’t usually bidding naturally if he’s relaying after the response to 2D, he’ll sometimes be declarer without having given away much information, which makes the defence more difficult than it might otherwise be

We have a lot of other artificial bidding over 1N beyond this outline

Note that responder can always set one of opener’s suits as trump below game, which makes slam bidding relatively easy.

[jillybean]

Completely artificial and complex but also quite logical how it steps through the sequence.
I hope one day to be able to play this level of agreements, with the right partner of course.

[akwoo]

I'm playing 1H-1S-1N shows 15-17. With 5 hearts 5332 and 12-14, we either open 1N or rebid a 3 card minor or raise on 3, depending on suit quality. (We rebid 3 card minors after 1M-1N(forcing) already anyway; this isn't that different a situation.) (EDIT: For us, 1H-1S-2H promises 6 hearts.)

Incidentally, xx AKQxx Qxx Qxx is definitely 1N, because you'll tend to get your heart tricks in either a heart contract or a notrump one. The hands that prefer opening 1H are like Kx QTxxx Axx Axx because you might lose your stoppers in notrump before managing to set up your hearts.

[TMorris]

jillybean, on 2023-January-27, 08:57, said:

Thanks, on these hands how do you continue after 1H 1S ?

I rebid 2 ♥. We don't rebid artifical minors in theory. I do occasionally in practice but only with values in the suit and a better than minimum hand that is not good enough to rebid 1nt ie a 14 count. 1nt rebids are always 15+. I don't find anything perfect but this works well enough for me. If I have 3 spades with my 5 card heart suit I will respond 2 ♠ to a 1 ♠ bid. 4 3 fits are fun to play and sometimes partner has 5.

[P_Marlowe]

We play 11-14, and we usually / basically always open the 5 carder, this finds the 5-3 fits
I am willing to agree to always open 1NT, this solves the rebid issues, if partner responds 1S.
I dont like to make the opening dependend on suit quality, it gives you the worst of both worlds.

My take is, that the trend goes towards showing the shape, i.e. opening NT, but I only have a limited
sample size.

[akwoo]

P_Marlowe, on 2023-January-31, 13:43, said:

I dont like to make the opening dependend on suit quality, it gives you the worst of both worlds.

Yes - making it depend on suit quality means that you get more situations where you play in 1N with the field in 2M or 3N with the field in 4M.

OTOH, being +630 instead of +620 (or +120 instead of +110) a couple times is, at my level, how you place well in MP games. I'm opening 1N precisely on the hands where this has a good chance of happening. And sometimes you've put yourself in a situation where you need to risk the contract to take a 25% line for the overtrick - unfortunate but it does work 25% of the time, and you realize +90 and -50 is the same MP score so you take it.