[patcanuck]

I've read discussions about the strengths and weaknesses of leading thirds and fifths but what I really need is to find is a good site where they go through a number of hands and explain the use of 3s/5s. My confusion is what they do with a four card suit, and how you avoid confusion when you have something like 982 where leading the 2 seems to suggest a five card suit?
Does my head in at the moment and hate the confusion. I am fairly comfortable with UDCA, standard carding, odds/evens but struggling with leading thirds and fifths.
Appreciate any help.
Pat

[Stephen Tu]

patcanuck, on 2022-October-11, 19:06, said:

I've read discussions about the strengths and weaknesses of leading thirds and fifths but what I really need is to find is a good site where they go through a number of hands and explain the use of 3s/5s. My confusion is what they do with a four card suit, and how you avoid confusion when you have something like 982 where leading the 2 seems to suggest a five card suit?
Does my head in at the moment and hate the confusion. I am fairly comfortable with UDCA, standard carding, odds/evens but struggling with leading thirds and fifths.

Don't know any websites; there are some books on defensive play & signalling that discuss this (e.g. Root how to defend a bridge hand, Marshall Miles Defensive signals).

In any case, the idea is usually "3rd from even, low from odd". I've never really figured out the exact difference between this and "3rd & 5th". Perhaps it means leading 5th from SEVEN cards exactly, so that a lowest lead from a known 7 card suit (you preempted) is some sort of suit preference play.

So from a 4 cd broken suit (not holding an honor sequence where you would lead an honor), you would lead the 3rd highest card.

From 982, you lead the deuce. Partner will assume an odd number, so 1/3/5 cards; on a few hands they may not know for sure, but usually between seeing dummy, their own hand, the bidding, and how trick 1 plays out, more often than not you can figure it out.

[sfi]

Stephen Tu, on 2022-October-11, 20:40, said:

In any case, the idea is usually "3rd from even, low from odd". I've never really figured out the exact difference between this and "3rd & 5th”

It’s whether you lead 3rd or 5th from a six-card suit.

[Stephen Tu]

sfi, on 2022-October-11, 21:12, said:

It's whether you lead 3rd or 5th from a six-card suit.

5th from 6 cd suit would be hard to read IMO. Guess that's why I always play 3rd & low! 5th as a default lead from seven I think is much more reasonable.

[DavidKok]

It's not too often you hold a 7-card suit, without a sequence, and your opening lead is not already a (Lavinthal) signal for partner to return a suit after ruffing.

(1st)/3rd/5th(/7th) leads or Odd leads favour showing length over strength. The idea is that partner will usually be able to tell the exact length you hold on the first trick by combining all the clues Stephen pointed out, and with it deduce declarer's length (and frequently, exact shape). In my local region many people play odd leads against trump suit contracts, reasoning that you will often lead a suit declarer has shortness in, and it is important to know how many tricks the suit will produce before it is ruffed. The downside is that you don't get as much of a choice when holding nice intermediates - for example, holding T942 you may well judge the ten (or nine) to be the percentage lead for setting up tricks, but when playing odd leads partner will likely interpret this as a doubleton or singleton.

The goal is to distinguish, say, a 2-card suit from a 3-card suit from a 4-card suit from a 5-card suit. The fact that leading the 2 may equally well be from a 3- and 5-card suit is usually not an issue - if you play partner for a 3-card suit that places two extra cards in declarer's hand, and often this is incompatible with the auction and/or first trick.

[patcanuck]

There must be sites where people discuss and go over a number of holdings to assist people trying to learn this but no searching I've done has uncovered any.

[patcanuck]

There must be sites where people discuss and go over a number of holdings to assist people trying to learn this but no searching I've done has uncovered any.

[bluenikki]

Stephen Tu, on 2022-October-11, 20:40, said:

From 982, you lead the deuce. Partner will assume an odd number, so 1/3/5 cards; on a few hands they may not know for sure, but usually between seeing dummy, their own hand, the bidding, and how trick 1 plays out, more often than not you can figure it out.

Yes, but from 983 and 9832, you are supposed to lead the 3. When the 2 is with a thinking declarer, partner will not know which. So the rule should be "lowest (not "low") from odd, highest you can afford from even."

Why does partner need to know your length in a worthless suit? So they will know how many honors will cash!

[Flem72]

A leading pair in our area often found themselves unable to read the low leads. They developed this fix:low from odd bid suits, 3rd from odd unbid suits, 3rd from even

[akwoo]

I found switching to upside signals no problem and frequently switch back and forth.

Switching to 3/5 leads has been quite hard for me though - I keep forgetting (both when I'm leading and when I'm interpreting partner's card).

My feeling is that, by the time a player is advanced enough to play 3/5 leads, they're usually advanced enough to be thinking through each of the possibilities for partner's hand (or suit) individually instead of relying on rules of thumb, habit, or intuition.

[Gilithin]

Playing 3/5 usually goes hand-in-hand with playing BUM leads for xxx. If you find BUM leads difficult and prefer to work with MUD, it is probably better to stick with 2/4 leads. Finally, you can play 3/5 with attitude leads, meaning you lead low from a doubleton. In this case, it is perfectly acceptable to lead the highest from xxx, which immediately solves the issue (at the cost of creating a different one).

[patcanuck]

Yeah I was wondering about having learned the most common distributions by heart and trying to quickly work things out that way whether or not that puts the 3/5 leads to bed.

[gwnn]

3/5 versus notrumps is an attractive option if you believe the maxim "lead your 5-card suit versus notrumps. if you don't have one, lead partner's 5-card suit". i.e., most of your leads will be from 3- and 5-card suits and you'll end up leading low a lot.