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In Precision, can you show me what you all do with Responder's second bid ?
I found the following responses , which don't seem unreasonable
minimum NT - minimum , no support 0-3 HCP
simple raise- minimum - 3 card support 0-4 HCP
new suit - maximum -no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump raise - maximum - 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump NT - maximum , balanced, no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
Thank you
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1C -1D -2H,2S,3C or 3D
#2
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Posted 2022-February-24, 11:19
It depends on how the above sequences are defined. In general, jumps over 1C - 1D, tend be GF, with 2H reserved as a Kokish relay in some systems. Perhaps, the jump raise to game should be dead minimum since we are already in a GF, and 3M should be stronger. Over the 3C bid (denying a major in some systems), 3D can be a punt, and 3M is 5+ any (looking for best game).
Also, a jump to 3M tends to set trump.
Also, a jump to 3M tends to set trump.
#3
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Posted 2022-February-24, 11:41
foobar, on 2022-February-24, 11:19, said:
It depends on how the above sequences are defined. In general, jumps over 1C - 1D, tend be GF, with 2H reserved as a Kokish relay in some systems. Perhaps, the jump raise to game should be dead minimum since we are already in a GF, and 3M should be stronger. Over the 3C bid (denying a major in some systems), 3D can be a punt, and 3M is 5+ any (looking for best game).
Also, a jump to 3M tends to set trump.
Also, a jump to 3M tends to set trump.
was not playing the jump as game-force; playing it as 22+. I will look up Kokish relay. I gather your unbalanced 1C opening has a wider range than mine ?
Do most precision people use the jump to be a game force ?
(Edit If Kokish relay is intended to show a certain type of balanced strong hand, we use Oliver Clarkes Super Precision Cambridge Relay methods to show NT distributions for all the various ranges)
#4
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Posted 2022-February-24, 19:27
Shugart23, on 2022-February-24, 05:58, said:
In Precision, can you show me what you all do with Responder's second bid ?
I found the following responses , which don't seem unreasonable
minimum NT - minimum , no support 0-3 HCP
simple raise- minimum - 3 card support 0-4 HCP
new suit - maximum -no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump raise - maximum - 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump NT - maximum , balanced, no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
Thank you
I found the following responses , which don't seem unreasonable
minimum NT - minimum , no support 0-3 HCP
simple raise- minimum - 3 card support 0-4 HCP
new suit - maximum -no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump raise - maximum - 3 card support 4-7 HCP
jump NT - maximum , balanced, no 3 card support 4-7 HCP
Thank you
I don't think those rebids look reasonable. Opposite a long heart suit, stray queens and jacks are worth a lot less than opposite a more balanced hand. Honors that aren't in one of opener's 2 suits are much less like to be valuable compared to NT.
One common expert method is that opener's 3♣ 3rd round rebid shows hearts only, and 3♥ shows hearts and clubs. This allows responder to make a simple preference to 3♥ saving a round of bidding, while showing club support by raising doesn't use up any additional room compared to raising 3♣.
Jump raise to 4NT with 4 HCP??? Or even with a random 7 HCP??? Opener should assume responder has about 1/3 the outstanding points so depending on the hand, maybe 6-7. If you are very worried about responder having nothing, you can play a 2nd negative.
Jump raise with a maximum and simple raise with a minimum? I would reverse those based on probabilities for slam and which is standard in strong 2♣ auctions.
Show a minimum hand with support.
#5
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Posted 2022-February-25, 05:49
johnu, on 2022-February-24, 19:27, said:
I don't think those rebids look reasonable. Opposite a long heart suit, stray queens and jacks are worth a lot less than opposite a more balanced hand. Honors that aren't in one of opener's 2 suits are much less like to be valuable compared to NT.
One common expert method is that opener's 3♣ 3rd round rebid shows hearts only, and 3♥ shows hearts and clubs. This allows responder to make a simple preference to 3♥ saving a round of bidding, while showing club support by raising doesn't use up any additional room compared to raising 3♣.
Jump raise to 4NT with 4 HCP??? Or even with a random 7 HCP??? Opener should assume responder has about 1/3 the outstanding points so depending on the hand, maybe 6-7. If you are very worried about responder having nothing, you can play a 2nd negative.
Jump raise with a maximum and simple raise with a minimum? I would reverse those based on probabilities for slam and which is standard in strong 2♣ auctions.
Show a minimum hand with support.
One common expert method is that opener's 3♣ 3rd round rebid shows hearts only, and 3♥ shows hearts and clubs. This allows responder to make a simple preference to 3♥ saving a round of bidding, while showing club support by raising doesn't use up any additional room compared to raising 3♣.
Jump raise to 4NT with 4 HCP??? Or even with a random 7 HCP??? Opener should assume responder has about 1/3 the outstanding points so depending on the hand, maybe 6-7. If you are very worried about responder having nothing, you can play a 2nd negative.
Jump raise with a maximum and simple raise with a minimum? I would reverse those based on probabilities for slam and which is standard in strong 2♣ auctions.
Show a minimum hand with support.
yeah, the jump to 4NT over 1C -3m doesnt make a lot of sense, but I didnt think a jump to 3NT as in 1C-2H -3NT was bad. do you think showing the minimum NT w/o support or a simple raise to show minimum w support or showing a new 5 card suit w/o support and a max are bad responses ?
#6
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Posted 2022-February-26, 00:59
I think the answer to your basic question about the reasonableness of responder's rebids is that the jump NT rebid in particular isn't very good. It's nice to know whether responder is maximum or minimum but the first objective is finding a fit. Game before slam. Also, responder is better able to know how his high cards mesh if opener is allowed to show more of his shape.
Many strong 2C (not 1C) players use cheapest minor as a second negative (So 2C-2D, 2S-3C would be negative) and it's probably even better to use this as a temporizing bid with a wide range of values (still 0-7 in other words) when responder has no suit worth mentioning and doesn't have a fit. You could do the same after opener's strong suit jump rebids. Like Atul mentioned, 1C-1D, 3C-3D would be temporizing and would let opener rebid a major.
Of course you then have to plan your system so that opener can show all of his two-suited hands. 1C-1D, 3C-3D presents a problem if opener's second suit is diamonds and responder isn't showing diamonds. After 1C-1D, 3D responder's rebids might be better reversed where 3H is temporizing and 3N shows hearts. But then how does opener show primary diamonds and also hearts? Maybe 1C-1D, 3H shows that. And 1C-1D, 3H-3S is temporizing. Generally you don't want the weak hand claiming NT.
Jump rebidding a minor needs to be GF because it's just so tight. Have you decided how to handle giant 5D/5C hands? or 6/4 minor suit hands? Some use 1C-1D, 3M as short the major and 5/5 in the minors.
1C-1D, 2M could be not quite GF, but that has problems and you have to ask why you're having 1C-1D, 1M be nf and 1C-1D, 2M be not forcing to game. You're giving up a lot of bidding space and not creating that GF.
Meckwell play 1C-1D, 1M as a one-round force. It lets opener show a second suit and gets the respective lengths sorted out. I gave you a link to some of their methods (I was filling in holes because I don't have the complete thing) in another recent thread. 1C-1D, 1H-X, 3C as hearts and 3H as hearts and clubs certainly is a good idea. I think they play that as well but I'm not sure. Atul's suggestion of 1C-1D, 2H as Kokish is also a Meckwell thing. I think their 1C-1D, 2S handles certain awkward big minor suit hands, like 1354 and 3145; I recall a relay they used to sort that out and sometimes stop at the 3-level. Maybe they've changed that.
Back to your question about what raises vs jumps in opener's suits should mean. Pretty standard is that jumps are weaker when we are already in a GF but stronger otherwise.
Just to throw you a curve, you could consider TOSR's rebid scheme. It's more suited for when you want a relay auction but it could make your bidding easier (I think Meckwell is better). I don't remember exactly how it went (maybe Atul does) but it was something like the following. After opener shows a minimum hand there was always a way for a max responder to inquire further.
1C-1D
..........1H-stronger
...............1S-second negative
....................1N-19-20
....................2C-GF
...............etc-natural and 6-7
..........1S-shows a minor
...............1N-6-7, asks the minor
...............2C-weaker, pass or correct
..........1N-16-18
..........2C-5/4 or 4/5 in the majors
...............2D-asks the longer major
...............2M-preference
..........2D-a 6-cd major
...............2H-p/c
...............2S-invitational for hearts only
...............2N-asking
..........2M-5M/4m
..........2N-minors
..........3m-highly invitational
Lastly, I think it would have been better if you had posted your entire 1C-1D continuation instead of just a small piece you were thinking about. The question I think some of us have had is how locked into these particular rebids you are. We could try to give you advice on these particular rebids when they are bad rebids to begin with.
Have you bought Dan's book on Meckwell Lite yet? I think it would help you out.
Many strong 2C (not 1C) players use cheapest minor as a second negative (So 2C-2D, 2S-3C would be negative) and it's probably even better to use this as a temporizing bid with a wide range of values (still 0-7 in other words) when responder has no suit worth mentioning and doesn't have a fit. You could do the same after opener's strong suit jump rebids. Like Atul mentioned, 1C-1D, 3C-3D would be temporizing and would let opener rebid a major.
Of course you then have to plan your system so that opener can show all of his two-suited hands. 1C-1D, 3C-3D presents a problem if opener's second suit is diamonds and responder isn't showing diamonds. After 1C-1D, 3D responder's rebids might be better reversed where 3H is temporizing and 3N shows hearts. But then how does opener show primary diamonds and also hearts? Maybe 1C-1D, 3H shows that. And 1C-1D, 3H-3S is temporizing. Generally you don't want the weak hand claiming NT.
Jump rebidding a minor needs to be GF because it's just so tight. Have you decided how to handle giant 5D/5C hands? or 6/4 minor suit hands? Some use 1C-1D, 3M as short the major and 5/5 in the minors.
1C-1D, 2M could be not quite GF, but that has problems and you have to ask why you're having 1C-1D, 1M be nf and 1C-1D, 2M be not forcing to game. You're giving up a lot of bidding space and not creating that GF.
Meckwell play 1C-1D, 1M as a one-round force. It lets opener show a second suit and gets the respective lengths sorted out. I gave you a link to some of their methods (I was filling in holes because I don't have the complete thing) in another recent thread. 1C-1D, 1H-X, 3C as hearts and 3H as hearts and clubs certainly is a good idea. I think they play that as well but I'm not sure. Atul's suggestion of 1C-1D, 2H as Kokish is also a Meckwell thing. I think their 1C-1D, 2S handles certain awkward big minor suit hands, like 1354 and 3145; I recall a relay they used to sort that out and sometimes stop at the 3-level. Maybe they've changed that.
Back to your question about what raises vs jumps in opener's suits should mean. Pretty standard is that jumps are weaker when we are already in a GF but stronger otherwise.
Just to throw you a curve, you could consider TOSR's rebid scheme. It's more suited for when you want a relay auction but it could make your bidding easier (I think Meckwell is better). I don't remember exactly how it went (maybe Atul does) but it was something like the following. After opener shows a minimum hand there was always a way for a max responder to inquire further.
1C-1D
..........1H-stronger
...............1S-second negative
....................1N-19-20
....................2C-GF
...............etc-natural and 6-7
..........1S-shows a minor
...............1N-6-7, asks the minor
...............2C-weaker, pass or correct
..........1N-16-18
..........2C-5/4 or 4/5 in the majors
...............2D-asks the longer major
...............2M-preference
..........2D-a 6-cd major
...............2H-p/c
...............2S-invitational for hearts only
...............2N-asking
..........2M-5M/4m
..........2N-minors
..........3m-highly invitational
Lastly, I think it would have been better if you had posted your entire 1C-1D continuation instead of just a small piece you were thinking about. The question I think some of us have had is how locked into these particular rebids you are. We could try to give you advice on these particular rebids when they are bad rebids to begin with.
Have you bought Dan's book on Meckwell Lite yet? I think it would help you out.
#7
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Posted 2022-February-26, 02:34
Shugart23, on 2022-February-24, 11:41, said:
was not playing the jump as game-force; playing it as 22+.
22+ does not seem reasonable to me. It seems right for it either to be game-forcing, or an Acol 2 hand type, or to fill in some specific hand types that are awkward for the rest of your structure. Assuming you go for one of the first 2, most logical would seem to be using a similar structure to the regular 2♣ auction. So over 2M, 2♠ nat, any strength; 2NT bucket, weak; 3m nat, extras, 3M extras with 1+ key cards, 4M extras with 0 key cards. And over 3♣, 3♦ Staymanic; 3M 5+ suit.
#8
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Posted 2022-February-26, 06:12
straube, on 2022-February-26, 00:59, said:
I think the answer to your basic question about the reasonableness of responder's rebids is that the jump NT rebid in particular isn't very good. It's nice to know whether responder is maximum or minimum but the first objective is finding a fit. Game before slam. Also, responder is better able to know how his high cards mesh if opener is allowed to show more of his shape.
Many strong 2C (not 1C) players use cheapest minor as a second negative (So 2C-2D, 2S-3C would be negative) and it's probably even better to use this as a temporizing bid with a wide range of values (still 0-7 in other words) when responder has no suit worth mentioning and doesn't have a fit. You could do the same after opener's strong suit jump rebids. Like Atul mentioned, 1C-1D, 3C-3D would be temporizing and would let opener rebid a major.
Of course you then have to plan your system so that opener can show all of his two-suited hands. 1C-1D, 3C-3D presents a problem if opener's second suit is diamonds and responder isn't showing diamonds. After 1C-1D, 3D responder's rebids might be better reversed where 3H is temporizing and 3N shows hearts. But then how does opener show primary diamonds and also hearts? Maybe 1C-1D, 3H shows that. And 1C-1D, 3H-3S is temporizing. Generally you don't want the weak hand claiming NT.
Jump rebidding a minor needs to be GF because it's just so tight. Have you decided how to handle giant 5D/5C hands? or 6/4 minor suit hands? Some use 1C-1D, 3M as short the major and 5/5 in the minors.
1C-1D, 2M could be not quite GF, but that has problems and you have to ask why you're having 1C-1D, 1M be nf and 1C-1D, 2M be not forcing to game. You're giving up a lot of bidding space and not creating that GF.
Meckwell play 1C-1D, 1M as a one-round force. It lets opener show a second suit and gets the respective lengths sorted out. I gave you a link to some of their methods (I was filling in holes because I don't have the complete thing) in another recent thread. 1C-1D, 1H-X, 3C as hearts and 3H as hearts and clubs certainly is a good idea. I think they play that as well but I'm not sure. Atul's suggestion of 1C-1D, 2H as Kokish is also a Meckwell thing. I think their 1C-1D, 2S handles certain awkward big minor suit hands, like 1354 and 3145; I recall a relay they used to sort that out and sometimes stop at the 3-level. Maybe they've changed that.
Back to your question about what raises vs jumps in opener's suits should mean. Pretty standard is that jumps are weaker when we are already in a GF but stronger otherwise.
Just to throw you a curve, you could consider TOSR's rebid scheme. It's more suited for when you want a relay auction but it could make your bidding easier (I think Meckwell is better). I don't remember exactly how it went (maybe Atul does) but it was something like the following. After opener shows a minimum hand there was always a way for a max responder to inquire further.
1C-1D
..........1H-stronger
...............1S-second negative
....................1N-19-20
....................2C-GF
...............etc-natural and 6-7
..........1S-shows a minor
...............1N-6-7, asks the minor
...............2C-weaker, pass or correct
..........1N-16-18
..........2C-5/4 or 4/5 in the majors
...............2D-asks the longer major
...............2M-preference
..........2D-a 6-cd major
...............2H-p/c
...............2S-invitational for hearts only
...............2N-asking
..........2M-5M/4m
..........2N-minors
..........3m-highly invitational
Lastly, I think it would have been better if you had posted your entire 1C-1D continuation instead of just a small piece you were thinking about. The question I think some of us have had is how locked into these particular rebids you are. We could try to give you advice on these particular rebids when they are bad rebids to begin with.
Have you bought Dan's book on Meckwell Lite yet? I think it would help you out.
Many strong 2C (not 1C) players use cheapest minor as a second negative (So 2C-2D, 2S-3C would be negative) and it's probably even better to use this as a temporizing bid with a wide range of values (still 0-7 in other words) when responder has no suit worth mentioning and doesn't have a fit. You could do the same after opener's strong suit jump rebids. Like Atul mentioned, 1C-1D, 3C-3D would be temporizing and would let opener rebid a major.
Of course you then have to plan your system so that opener can show all of his two-suited hands. 1C-1D, 3C-3D presents a problem if opener's second suit is diamonds and responder isn't showing diamonds. After 1C-1D, 3D responder's rebids might be better reversed where 3H is temporizing and 3N shows hearts. But then how does opener show primary diamonds and also hearts? Maybe 1C-1D, 3H shows that. And 1C-1D, 3H-3S is temporizing. Generally you don't want the weak hand claiming NT.
Jump rebidding a minor needs to be GF because it's just so tight. Have you decided how to handle giant 5D/5C hands? or 6/4 minor suit hands? Some use 1C-1D, 3M as short the major and 5/5 in the minors.
1C-1D, 2M could be not quite GF, but that has problems and you have to ask why you're having 1C-1D, 1M be nf and 1C-1D, 2M be not forcing to game. You're giving up a lot of bidding space and not creating that GF.
Meckwell play 1C-1D, 1M as a one-round force. It lets opener show a second suit and gets the respective lengths sorted out. I gave you a link to some of their methods (I was filling in holes because I don't have the complete thing) in another recent thread. 1C-1D, 1H-X, 3C as hearts and 3H as hearts and clubs certainly is a good idea. I think they play that as well but I'm not sure. Atul's suggestion of 1C-1D, 2H as Kokish is also a Meckwell thing. I think their 1C-1D, 2S handles certain awkward big minor suit hands, like 1354 and 3145; I recall a relay they used to sort that out and sometimes stop at the 3-level. Maybe they've changed that.
Back to your question about what raises vs jumps in opener's suits should mean. Pretty standard is that jumps are weaker when we are already in a GF but stronger otherwise.
Just to throw you a curve, you could consider TOSR's rebid scheme. It's more suited for when you want a relay auction but it could make your bidding easier (I think Meckwell is better). I don't remember exactly how it went (maybe Atul does) but it was something like the following. After opener shows a minimum hand there was always a way for a max responder to inquire further.
1C-1D
..........1H-stronger
...............1S-second negative
....................1N-19-20
....................2C-GF
...............etc-natural and 6-7
..........1S-shows a minor
...............1N-6-7, asks the minor
...............2C-weaker, pass or correct
..........1N-16-18
..........2C-5/4 or 4/5 in the majors
...............2D-asks the longer major
...............2M-preference
..........2D-a 6-cd major
...............2H-p/c
...............2S-invitational for hearts only
...............2N-asking
..........2M-5M/4m
..........2N-minors
..........3m-highly invitational
Lastly, I think it would have been better if you had posted your entire 1C-1D continuation instead of just a small piece you were thinking about. The question I think some of us have had is how locked into these particular rebids you are. We could try to give you advice on these particular rebids when they are bad rebids to begin with.
Have you bought Dan's book on Meckwell Lite yet? I think it would help you out.
Thanks much...There is a lot here and I appreciate the response. My bridge history started about 12 years ago when I asked the wife if she would learn bridge with me . She said pick out the system and after research decided that since the best players in the world play precision, that is where we would start. SO for the next 5-7 years we learned and played Oliver Clarkes' super precision system: http://ocp.pigpen.org.uk/ We went from absolute beginners to being among the top in club games ( we have also scratched in 49 states as a bit of trivia). I then got tired of opening 5 card Majors and having Opponents overcall my 1D bid and convinced my wife that we should open 4 card Majors. I just didn't see why opening 5 card Majors had to be linked to strong 1C openings. Living in ACBL, I found Kem's Modified Italian Canape System (MCIS) and we began using his work as a framework , with a few of our own modifications.
We had to throw out a lot of what we knew about non -1 Club opening bids and it took about 3-6 months before things were clicking again. Bridge was no longer stale for us ( it was fun to open our opponent's suit with a crappy 4 card Major ) SO we played MCIS for about three years, and then the Pandemic hit. The wife retired from bridge and I haven't looked at a bridge hand until about 3 weeks ago. https://bridgewinner...-canape-system/
Fortunately, I found on-line, an old friend and he and I have begun to play. He has never played Precision so I am teaching him, using Oliver's system as the foundation. At this point I am going through with him all the 1C bids, and responses and asking bid sequences and the 2C and 2D openings .( I also use an opening of 2NT as showing 5+-5+ in the minors 11-15) It's unlikely I will teach him MCIS. as unfortunately there just aren't a lot of canape players around. But if you have a life-long bridge partner, MCIS is a ton of fun to try
anyway, that is my boring history, and the context of where I am at with my questions. Thank you all for your help as I get back up to speed after a 3 year compete hiatus from the game
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