[akwoo]

I've played a system over mini NT (10-12) where 1N-3C(*)-3D-3M shows the 6C+4M hand. Here, 3C is clubs GF or diamonds weak, so 3D is 100% required. It does have a way to show clubs invitational. (The whole idea of the system is that most bids are GF with the suit bid or weak with the next suit up, with invitations mixed into various sequences.)

We had a big win once where 1N-2D-2H-3H showed 6D+4H and we got out in 4H in a Moysian while everyone else was down 5 top tricks in spades in 3N.

With the given hand, the bidding sequence 1N-2C-2S-3C shows a weak 3-suiter without spades (that hates NT enough to risk the 3 level). (You would pass after 1N-2C-2D or 1N-2C-2H.)

[Mariner1]

try this:

A. 2 ♠ -> 3♣ if opener has a good fit and 1N bids 2N without.

B. 2N transfers to 3♦ if the opener has a good fit and bids 3♣ without.

To stop with a weak hand the responder either passes if NT bid their suit or they bid it themselves to end the auction.

If responder wants to pursue the auction they bid higher than their transfer suit which should be used for either showing controls or low-level asking bids as agreed upon in partnership.

The ability to do the above is why 1N - 2♣ and then responding bidding either - 3♣ / ♦ should be intermediate.

-----

Now all 3 types of hands can be handled without a lot of confusion. And there are more possible actions should 4th seat enter the auction.

-----

A. & B. can be reversed and after 2S or 2N the 1N opener can bid the transfer suit without the fit and the intermediary suit with a good fit. Then the responder can sign off and become declarer by bidding their suit or bid higher if desired. Both methods have their +/- levels for consideration.


mariner1

[mikeh]

Mariner1, on 2022-January-07, 17:38, said:

try this:

A. 2 ♠ -> 3♣ if opener has a good fit and 1N bids 2N without.

B. 2N transfers to 3♦ if the opener has a good fit and bids 3♣ without.

To stop with a weak hand the responder either passes if NT bid their suit or they bid it themselves to end the auction.

If responder wants to pursue the auction they bid higher than their transfer suit which should be used for either showing controls or low-level asking bids as agreed upon in partnership.

The ability to do the above is why 1N - 2♣ and then responding bidding either - 3♣ / ♦ should be intermediate.

-----

Now all 3 types of hands can be handled without a lot of confusion. And there are more possible actions should 4th seat enter the auction.

-----

A. & B. can be reversed and after 2S or 2N the 1N opener can bid the transfer suit without the fit and the intermediary suit with a good fit. Then the responder can sign off and become declarer by bidding their suit or bid higher if desired. Both methods have their +/- levels for consideration.


mariner1

There are many excellent structures over strong 1N. Some pretty good ones over weak as well, but strong notrump tends to lead somewhat more to game and slam situations than does the weak variety. This, and the higher chance that the hand belongs to the opps after a weak notrump, suggests that one should play different methods

As an example, in my current most serious partnership we play extended transfers over 14-16 and a relay method, with lots of preemptive alternatives, over weak.

For us, 1N (14-16) 2C 2D 2H shows an invitational hand with 5+ spades (rarely more than 5) and 1N 2C 2D 2S is either a balanced invite in notrump (with at least one 4 card major) or an invitational hand with 4S and longer hearts

There’s a lot more, of course. We have quite a few pages of system notes just for 1N, which is either 11-13 or 14-16.

I think it categorically wrong to state that one ‘should’ play any particular method. Furthermore the meaning to be ascribed to any particular sequence has to depend on where it fits within the rest. We’re an imp partnership. While we’ve played and will in the future play some mps, we only do so when there is no good imp event available. That means that our focus is on games and slams when we open strong, and we have very detailed, high memory load agreements.

Your suggestion that 1N 2N transfers to clubs and that opener bids 3C with no fit and 3D otherwise clashes with a currently widely played approach in which 2S is either any hand with clubs or an invite in notrump, with no major. We play something similar to that, but include invitational diamond hands as well, because other sequences don’t handle those very well for us.

This ‘standard’ expert treatment is extremely powerful, not so much because of clubs but because when, as is more common, responder is inviting in notrump, the opponents are in the dark as to opener’s major holding. This often leads to an unfortunate, for the defence, lead.

A simple example: you hold Q10xx Q10xx Axx xx

You’re on lead v 3N.

On one auction, Lho used stayman and bid 2N (not promising nor denying a major) over opener’s 2S bid.

So you lead a heart which may or may not work but it’s surely usually going to be better than a spade

At the other table LHO bid 2S, either clubs or invitational in notrump, denying a major. Opener bids 3C, showing a maximum, and responder bid 3N.

You can’t infer that partner has nothing in spades…a double would show at least a decent 5 card suit so he’d pass with AJxx or the like.

Your lead

It’s easy to see that either major might be right or a disaster. The opps don’t have extra hcp…they had an invitational auction. So blowing a trick or even a tempo on opening lead may cost a game swing.

Thus any method that uses 2S as you suggest has better deliver significant benefits to offset the significant costs

All too often players fall in love with a pet sequence because it solves a problem, but they either don’t know about other, better, methods or they don’t think carefully enough about how their
gadget fits into a coherent whole.

[Mariner1]

Since I am recommending one method which is in opposition to some other "Popular" methods then I pretty much am generally opposed to those methods though I will play some of them for partnership harmony.

BTW, in bidding just because it is "Popular" definitely does not mean it is the best horse to be tangling your spurs on.

------

"For us, 1N (14-16) 2C 2D 2H shows an invitational hand with 5+ spades (rarely more than 5) and 1N 2C 2D 2S is either a balanced invite in notrump (with at least one 4 card major) or an invitational hand with 4S and longer hearts."

Neither case interferes with how I prefer to play/recommend the minor suit transfers and intermediate minor holdings be bid.