BBO Discussion Forums: How good is this? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

How good is this?

Poll: How good is this? (18 member(s) have cast votes)

These bids are:

  1. an overbid (11 votes [61.11%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 61.11%

  2. an underbid (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. about right (7 votes [38.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 38.89%

  4. wouldn't have messed with diamonds (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 479
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2021-November-09, 17:53


0

#2 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-09, 18:03

If partner passes 2, they'll probably be something like a minimum 5134 shape, in which case I'm happy to play there.
0

#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,273
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-November-09, 18:55

This hand has potential but needs the right cards opposite - against a bad fit it loses a lot of its value.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#4 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 479
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2021-November-09, 19:20

KTxxx-xx-Qxxx-xx makes 4h with 50% chance of 5h.
0

#5 User is offline   Evies Dad 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 65
  • Joined: 2020-March-26

Posted 2021-November-09, 20:15

Assuming you don't have 2 heart losers. That isn't negligible.
0

#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,273
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-November-09, 20:35

View PostHardVector, on 2021-November-09, 19:20, said:

KTxxx-xx-Qxxx-xx makes 4h with 50% chance of 5h.


Try making 3N with KJxxxx, x, xx, KQxx or Qxxx, x, xxx, KJxxx, The problem with this hand is that you cannot compel partner to hold 2 or more hearts, and unless that is the case the hand is not as good as it appears.


If the auction starts, 1H-1N
2D-2H
Now you can bid 4H with some confidence. What you can never really be confident of is forcing partner into 3NT, which is what a 3D second bid may accomplish.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,152
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2021-November-10, 01:03

We play 2 as "forcing if you had a response" and 2N as unbal GF meaning that 3 is this sort of hand (2 good 5+ suits, not an especially good hand) with this at the top end NF.
0

#8 User is online   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,181
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-November-10, 02:21

As a jump shift in standard the hcp count is too weak with partner expecting ~3hcp more.
I guess this will lead to 3NT failures.
However I voted about right as this describes what I use the bid for i.e. 55 and intermediate with responder expected to pick a suit or move ahead with a Limit+ strength hand.
With stronger hands I take a slower/lower approach with my bid being 2NT for 4+ s/3523 allowing a 3 shape request.
0

#9 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,238
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-10, 08:26

About right.

Now, 2D is an underbid, 3D is an overbid.
The spade void is an minus.

But you are 6-5, and 3D will make sure you play game, and wont go plus
in a silly part score with lots of overtricks.

And I wont end up in 3NT, if partner bids 3NT, I am bidding 4D.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#10 User is offline   HardVector 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 479
  • Joined: 2018-May-28

Posted 2021-November-10, 11:02

Why does everyone think that 3n will end the auction?
0

#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,273
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-November-10, 11:21

View PostHardVector, on 2021-November-10, 11:02, said:

Why does everyone think that 3n will end the auction?


The best scenario is for partner to hold at least 2H. If I pull 3NT it will be into 4H as I don't want to play in 5D if partner has a weakish hand with only 3 diamonds.

What is your suggestion if responder's hand doesn't fit with opener?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#12 User is online   smerriman 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,009
  • Joined: 2014-March-15
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-10, 13:44

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-November-10, 11:21, said:

What is your suggestion if responder's hand doesn't fit with opener?

I'll add an extra question to this; what is the OP's suggestion if responder's hand *does* fit?

That is, with the original hand the OP proposed (KTxxx-xx-Qxxx-xx) you'll get a diamond raise over 3, but the OP mentioned wanting to be in 4. Are you correcting 4 to 4, ostensibly showing a strong hand in hearts that may well have faked a jump shift into a 3 card diamond suit?

If the plan is to bid 4 in all circumstances, perhaps 4 instead of showing diamonds at all would have worked better.
0

#13 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 975
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-10, 15:52

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-November-10, 13:44, said:

I'll add an extra question to this; what is the OP's suggestion if responder's hand *does* fit?

That is, with the original hand the OP proposed (KTxxx-xx-Qxxx-xx) you'll get a diamond raise over 3, but the OP mentioned wanting to be in 4. Are you correcting 4 to 4, ostensibly showing a strong hand in hearts that may well have faked a jump shift into a 3 card diamond suit?

If the plan is to bid 4 in all circumstances, perhaps 4 instead of showing diamonds at all would have worked better.

If the auction starts, 1 - 1 -- 2 - 3, a 3 continuation seems to do the necessary. If Responder has 2 hearts here they should now show them.
0

#14 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,273
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2021-November-10, 21:36

View PostGilithin, on 2021-November-10, 15:52, said:

If the auction starts, 1 - 1 -- 2 - 3, a 3 continuation seems to do the necessary. If Responder has 2 hearts here they should now show them.


I think the question concerned what to do over 1H-1S-3D-4D. Personally, I think with Kxxx, xx, Qxxx, xxx responder should still take the false preference to 3H as the jump shift second suit is always suspect.


My take on this hand is that it is a very fine hand as long as there is a fit in hearts - and if there is a fit in hearts you can find that our most of the time by bidding 2D.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
0

#15 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,000
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2021-November-10, 22:31

It’s easier to accelerate after an initial conservative sequence. It’s virtually impossible to decelerate (effectively) after an initial aggressive sequence

Will 2D (my choice) miss some games? Obviously, although partner will in practice rarely pass when game is good. For example, with xx and Kxx in the reds he’s bidding 2H even with a terrible hand. About the only time he’s passing 2D is with at least two more diamonds than hearts.

Meanwhile, after 3D, you’re going to bid some horrible games and horrible slams.

Looking at this hand and choosing to bid 3D is focusing on not missing games while ignoring the downsides.

Besides, we have only 14 hcp and a lot of shape. Both factors, combined with the silent opponents, reduce tge already low chances of 2D both ending the auction and missing game

Give him, say, KQJxx x xxx Qxxx

Over 3D he bids 3S and over 4D what? Does anyone think we have a plus score coming? It’s not as if he can pass. We might have x AKQxxx AKQxx x, lol.

Meanwhile, I and the other 2D bidders score up a plus. Thanks, overbidders😀
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
1

#16 User is offline   Gilithin 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 975
  • Joined: 2014-November-13
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-10, 23:16

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-November-10, 21:36, said:


I think the question concerned what to do over 1H-1S-3D-4D. Personally, I think with Kxxx, xx, Qxxx, xxx responder should still take the false preference to 3H as the jump shift second suit is always suspect.


My take on this hand is that it is a very fine hand as long as there is a fit in hearts - and if there is a fit in hearts you can find that our most of the time by bidding 2D.

After 1 - 1 -- 3, 3 is not really false preference so much as a grope. You have to bid this with a range of hands that are unsure of the final destination. If people are seriously considering bidding 4 with your example hand, they deserve to find themselves in a hopeless slam 100% of the time.
1

#17 User is offline   LBengtsson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 974
  • Joined: 2017-August-10
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2021-November-11, 03:23

My simple way to look at this is 6/5 shape with all honours in long suit. 2 is major underbid. 3 is very minor overbid.

You can think a million different hands partner can have where slam/game makes or does not make, but not bidding your own hand strength is acting as a coward. if you think you are overbidding hand with 3, then you could also bid 3 as invitation as alternative though that is not a good bid as you lose suit as possible place to play.

So I bid 3 100% of the time with this hand, even with void/stiff/misfit.
0

#18 User is online   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,181
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2021-November-14, 04:19

One I had last night with freakier distribution
2/2/3/4?

0

#19 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,517
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2021-November-14, 05:22

A suspicious auction. What is the distribution of spades around the table? North is likely to only have 4 or 5 spades, but East can't raise. I guess 0-6-5-2 is possible, though I'm guessing 0-7-4-2 or even 0-6-4-3 is more likely. So why aren't EW bidding more?
I don't know what to do here. Normally I'd say something like "By bidding 4 I am showing my extreme shape, and partner will know what to do if the opponents compete further". But I think they might not compete further, and partner is poised to give a penalty double to their 4. So we might just be sticking our neck out for no reason. Also, absent other agreements, 3 might show a hand with more HCP and prompt partner to bid 3NT and then what will we do? So I guess it's 2 for me, intending to rebid diamonds. But maybe a direct 4 is better, but I fear we might have already crossed the par.
0

#20 User is offline   ThomasRush 

  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 60
  • Joined: 2020-August-27
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Houston, Texas, USA (or thereabouts)
  • Interests:Bridge (?), Toastmasters, wine, people, libertarianism, creating humor, teaching bridge

Posted 2021-November-14, 20:51

View PostDavidKok, on 2021-November-14, 05:22, said:

A suspicious auction. What is the distribution of spades around the table? North is likely to only have 4 or 5 spades, but East can't raise. I guess 0-6-5-2 is possible, though I'm guessing 0-7-4-2 or even 0-6-4-3 is more likely. So why aren't EW bidding more?
I don't know what to do here. Normally I'd say something like "By bidding 4 I am showing my extreme shape, and partner will know what to do if the opponents compete further". But I think they might not compete further, and partner is poised to give a penalty double to their 4. So we might just be sticking our neck out for no reason. Also, absent other agreements, 3 might show a hand with more HCP and prompt partner to bid 3NT and then what will we do? So I guess it's 2 for me, intending to rebid diamonds. But maybe a direct 4 is better, but I fear we might have already crossed the par.


This is the longest answer to a question not asked that I've seen in a long time. Are you sure you're replying to the right original post?
He who plants a tree affirms the future
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users