[westwind3]

How are BBO points calculated. If I look at the daily best performers , I see players with 38+ points in a single day. On ACBL Speedball , I've got 2.4 points for first position in 338 players. It's not that easy to get 1/338 in an ACBL event , so how are players getting 38+ points in a single day ?

[pigpenz]

they play alot

[pilowsky]

westwind3, on 2021-February-13, 07:37, said:

How are BBO points calculated. If I look at the daily best performers , I see players with 38+ points in a single day. On ACBL Speedball , I've got 2.4 points for first position in 338 players. It's not that easy to get 1/338 in an ACBL event , so how are players getting 38+ points in a single day ?

The main difference is that BBO tournaments are not stratified.
This means that if you play in a daylong tournament with around 1000 players, the entire pool is combined and the points then awarded (from the top down) on a Log scale.

The daylong matchpoints number 1 is a good example.
In the DL1 that I played a couple of days ago, I had my best result since I started playing with 61.15% I was pretty happy. I ranked 164/1059. I scored 0.96 masterpoints.

The maximum MP's you can get in the ACBL is about 0.9.
The reason is that in ACBL tournaments you are not competing against the best players in the world, you are competing against a small pool within your masterpoint bracket.
If you do really well, you will still only get a maximum of about 0.9 to 1.0, but if you are a player with few masterpoints your chances of getting something are higher - because you are competing with the players in your section.

BBO tournaments allow the outstanding players to get large numbers of MP's because they demonstrate that they are better than the whole pool.

In the DL1, the top 10 players share more than 100 MP's each (ranging from 12.29 down to 10.68). The players ranked between 50 and 60 share only 25 MP's and the players in my 160 to 170 group shared about 10 MP's.
Normally I get zip.

By the time you get to 457 (52.58%), there's nothing left. Imagine playing in a regular tournament and getting nothing for scoring >50%!

The total number of MP's available that day was 790.54, but the top 58 players got 472.3 of them - that's logarithms for you.

To put it another way, BBO points are 'capitalist' the rich get richer. ACBL points are somewhat more socialist - 'to each according to their ability'.

This means that when you pay the ACBL $1.35 to play in a Daylong, you are more likely to get something even if you are not one of the world's best players.
If you pay BBO $0.39, then your opportunity to win MP's is much higher - but only if you are a consistently good player.

To get better results in the BBO Daylong, you can form a team with a friend and combine your percentages at the end . This encourages you to do better for the sake of the team, but sadly, you will not get any MP's when you score more than 100%. Not something that happens very often!
Most of the time, I get less than 50% and get nothing. But it is cheap, and I am competing daily in a tournament with more than 1000 opponents.
At one point things were looking so grim that I suggested to my partner that we add another member to the team.
If you are cut from a more competitive cloth, select one of the regulars like 'leftfoot' or 'punxsyphil' and try to beat them.

Obviously, the more you play, the more you get, but the Daylong structure is the main reason for your discovery.

[westwind3]

So that means you could play say 10 day-longs ( 12 bds ) a day and once you get used to the vagaries of the robots , you will likely beat a large percentage of players of the same skill, but who are just occasional players. You will expect to be in the top 5% every time, assuming that you are also a genuinely strong player. That might give you 30/40 BBO points on a good day ?? playing with the robots.

Is that the explanation for daily BBO points of 30+

Playing 10 ACBL events against human opponents ( e.g. speedball ), a day , if you won every single one , you might only get 25 points. And the opposition on speedball ,can include some quite promising players like Meckstroth or Mahmood

[pilowsky]

westwind3, on 2021-February-14, 16:41, said:

So that means you could play say 10 day-longs ( 12 bds ) a day and once you get used to the vagaries of the robots , you will likely beat a large percentage of players of the same skill, but who are just occasional players. You will expect to be in the top 5% every time, assuming that you are also a genuinely strong player. That might give you 30/40 BBO points on a good day ?? playing with the robots.

Is that the explanation for daily BBO points of 30+

Playing 10 ACBL events against human opponents ( e.g. speedball ), a day , if you won every single one , you might only get 25 points. And the opposition on speedball ,can include some quite promising players like Meckstroth or Mahmood

No, the ACBL daylongs (12 boards) are divided into sections as well as being stratified.
I haven't played one of these for a very long time.
The maximum number of ACBL points that you can get playing with robots is limited (because the pool of players in the section is limited)

BBO daylongs are different - there is only one section.
I choose the DL1 because it has >1000 participants daily, so the points pool is much larger (see above).
More importantly, you are competing against a very high-quality pool of candidates. Imagine if 1000 people walked into your club to play a tourney (some on the roof, some in the basement); clearly, this is going to be a difficult tournament.
It is not limited by 'section' because there is only one section.

The limiting factors in tournaments that 'award' points or prizes are the number of entrants. More sections are 'bad' because it limits the maximum number of points you can get, but 'good' because you are more likely to get something.
Stratification is different. Players at all skill levels play the same boards and are split according to their number of MP's afterwards.

Chess players are familiar with this strategy. It's the same as 'rating' groups in large Open tournaments.

Again, you are right in saying that the more you play, the better your chances of getting points.
On the other hand, if you don't temper it with some learning in between, you never improve.

That's why I pay for Prime membership. It means I can practice endlessly for a relatively small amount of money and check my play and bidding quickly on the Teaching table. (BBO doesn't pay me btw).

I find the Prime facility to be one thing that has improved all facets of my play more than anything else.
I figure if I can at least get my head around one (so-called) simple system, that would be a good start.

[smerriman]

The $1 Daylong Reward is especially good for BBO points quickly at the moment (shameless plug). Though of course, BBO points are entirely meaningless.

[johnu]

smerriman, on 2021-February-15, 01:50, said:

The $1 Daylong Reward is especially good for BBO points quickly at the moment (shameless plug). Though of course, BBO points are entirely meaningless.

Not quite true. You need 10,000 BBO points to rate yourself as World Class in your self ratings. For no cost, BBO will automatically "lend" you 10,000 points in case you don't have that many.

[pilowsky]

The point about points is that they are just that: a collection of barnacles on the ship of knowledge. The more you play, the better you get and the more stick to the ship.
A very 'intelligent' Bridge-player once wrote:
"In addition, because the American Contract Bridge League (ACBL) does not rank the bulk of its players in meaningful ways, it is difficult to compare the strengths of competing programs or players."

In other words, Bridge is one of the only sports I know of where there are no dynamic ranks. Like sharks, Bridge-players keep playing and accumulating MP's until they stop.
The number that they have tells you very little about their ability to perform at any given moment.

I agree with the idea that points mean little. Many on this Forum in the short time that I have been reading it have said something similar at one time or another.
One very highly 'pointed' player once remarked something along the lines of "Masterpoints are just advertising".

Many of the very best players that write regularly on this Forum such as MikeH, Nige1 cyberyeti and many others have relatively few, or no, BBO points. I still value their opinions and comments highly.
They simply seem to prefer a different form of the game.
The fact that I am not an expert player does not detract from my enjoyment of the game. So long as it invigorates and teaches me new things I'll stick with it.

Collecting BBO points vs GIB compares your performance against other humans, so it is still satisfying.
When I succeed in the Club, my pleasure is as much derived from any accurate play that I might make as it does from the pleasure it gives my partner in our joint success.
The obvious downside comes from disappointing your partner - which is why nobody likes to have their (obvious) errors pointed out to them in technicolour unless they ask.

People will say all kinds of things too intimate that they are better than you - presumably to gain a psychological edge.
A few of my favourites - in no special order are:

• I've been playing for twenty years.
• I'm an ACBL certified bridge teacher.
• You're doing it incorrectly because (insert any well-known player) says you should do it this way.
• Your preempt was too heavy/light (delete whichever applies) after you went down or made too many tricks.

As you gain even a modicum of expertise, you quickly recognise the fallacy in each of these.


So yes, points are pointless, but on the other hand, if you have collected a few, it does mean that you have played well in a number of competitions.


Sure you can play in lots of tournaments - but everyone needs some sleep.
At some point, you will tire, get old and your faculties will dwindle.
All of which is a little nihilistic - everyone dies eventually.


But, there is a way to see if you are improving if personal satisfaction is what you want.
1. The DL number one and now the Zenith tournament both have a very high quality of candidature. Do well (or improve) in these, and your play is getting better.
2. Use the free Challenge format to 'Challenge a Star'. I like the 8 board IMP format. These are sets of deals that Advanced-Expert players played. If you start to do better, then you are improving.
3. Now that you have made a post here you should be able to play in the weekly Forum challenge. Then you can see how your abilities playing GIB ranks against the people here - many of them play it.


You will often hear it said that BBO points are worthless and that playing robots is not "real Bridge" - but you still have to learn a reasonably complex system. You still have to learn shapes and hand evaluation, and you still need to learn to remember where all the cards are and which ones have been played.
It is wrong to claim that playing with GIB has no heuristic value.
Anyone that tries to say otherwise doesn't understand what it's like to learn something entirely new from scratch, or perhaps they have forgotten

[diana_eva]

smerriman, on 2021-February-15, 01:50, said:

The $1 Daylong Reward is especially good for BBO points quickly at the moment (shameless plug).

Upvoted for the feat

Disagree that BBO Points are entirely meaningless. It's fun to win *something*. We can all pretend we don't care but all games have some incentive to keep going besides the inner peace of knowing you have grown to be a better human.

[westwind3]

smerriman , tx for your reply , I see what u mean. If you go to BBO, click on completed tournaments, you get the full details of traveller, movie. In that event, you came 1 out 1224 for 19.71 BBO points. If you look at the 90%+ scores in the recap sheet, they are nearly all lunatic plays/bids by Robots ( e.g. 6HX cold on 19hcp after looney robot X , 4CX-3 vul/non-vul robot sacrifice over 3N etc ). Assume they do the same at every table, so maybe the huge advantage for any strong player is that he always "human declares" , and will expect a top 5% most times. In that event, even rank #50 is getting nearly 10 BBO points.

Agree , BBO points are totally meaningless , a pity they cannot come up with some way to make a realistic measure of player rankings.