[luckyloser]

both green, you (N) hold

♠ 56
♥ AQ3
♦ A56
♣ Q5432

playing better minor P opens 1♠showing 5 and rho bids 2♣
you elect to try for a trap pass dbl and pass (would you?), lho passes
P now bids 2♠ and RHO passes, what now?

[mycroft]

1) I wouldn't. Give me QT875 and I'd think about it. "Classic" 2m overcalls are solid, so I'm expecting AJTxxx or KJTxxx (and all the x's are bigger than the 5), so unless we successfully tap declarer twice, we get exactly one trump trick. Which means we need to find 5 more if game doesn't make. If game does make, we need to be +500 - which means *we* have to make 2♣ with a very bad trump break. That's almost certainly not happening.

More modern 2m overcalls would look like AKJxx or AJTxx - where there's more of a chance you can tap RHO out. But it's still AKJxx *and a card or two* - which if not the ♥K are probably making.

2) If you know your partner has 6, I'd bid 4♠. Your ♣Q isn't pulling it's weight, but the rest of the hand certainly is. If partner could be fishing, you could gamble 3NT - if you have a way to bid the hand so that partner gets to choose between 3NT and 4♠, even better. It's not likely that partner doesn't have 6, though - partner is highly unlikely to have 2 clubs, and isn't 5-4-3-1 or the like (5=3=4=1 would double likely, and 5=4=3=1 would bid 2♥). And the club losers are club losers, but except in the highly unlikely case that they're AKxxx opposite void and it goes A, K, ruff, partner is always able to overruff.

Frankly, my biggest concern is spades are 0=5, just like the clubs (and LHO's spots are better than mine).

[Tramticket]

I want better quality trumps to look for penalties. This trump suit will likely deliver 1 trick.

Partner's bid is likely based on a hand with shape. With a more balanced hand, partner might double (what is you NT range?). You might try 3C.

[akwoo]

I would pass with much better club intermediates (QT9xx or QT87x would do).

I would pass at favorable vulnerability, where down 2 is better than your own game.

I would have bid 3N instead. If you'd forced a first round pass on me, I'd bid 3N now. I hope partner understands that passing 3N is more attractive with AKQxxx of spades than with KJTxxx of spades.

[DavidKok]

So what do you bid with this hand instead, 3NT? Not completely unreasonable, but it does kill the bidding and Q5432 isn't much of a club stopper. I'd pass, not intended as a 'trap pass' but to bid this hand on a second round if partner doubles (for example with 3♣). I don't think any legal direct bid describes my hand on the first round, so no other option really.

[FelicityR]

Here's my honest answer: "Was North's first pass brilliant?" Well, as for 'brilliant' I find it completely 'absurd' if looking at it on the basis of a 'trap pass'. It is hardly marvellous, exceptional or outstanding, but asking whether it was 'sound' is another matter entirely.

To me, you only have two bids at you disposal: Pass, a complete understatement of your values or where you haven't got a suitable bid at your disposal, or 2NT showing your values of a stop in ♣ with approximately 11-12 HCPs.

As other commentators have already stated, you need a better ♣ suit to try for a penalty against the opponents; and equally, your ♣ suit is so anaemic - and partner is unlikely to provide any help - that it's only providing one stop against a suit where the opponents will undoubtedly establish four or five winners on the opening lead.

However, 2NT seems right as you are stating your values, no more, no less. As for passing and hoping a penalty double comes your way, well few hands are played at the two level on a penalty basis, but passing as you haven't got a suitable bid at your disposal is also a bid that is entirely feasible given the unsuitability of your hand. That's what is called 'taking a view'. However, passing and partner re-opening with 2♦, let's say, would still leave you with a dilemma of what to bid next. So over the opponent's 2♣ intervention I bid 2NT straightaway. At least partner won't be in any doubt of your values even though it might lead to the wrong contract, but at least partner still has a level of bidding available to explore game options.

[DavidKok]

@FelicityR perhaps it is a difference in bidding style, but while I agree with all the arguments you put forth I disagree with your conclusion. Personally I don't play 2NT as natural in a competitive auction, but even if I did it would show 10-11 points with a decent club stopper (and by implication, a hand not suitable for a trap double). Not 12 points holding 2 aces and an anaemic club suit, as you beautifully put it. With any 12 point hand looking for 3NT I would just bid it - no point splitting hairs over possible minimum openers in competitive auctions.

I also don't really see why we have to make a decision between a trap pass or an immediate 2NT/3NT - what happened to pass first, then bid when partner reopens the bidding? It is likely partner has at most one or two clubs, so they'll stretch to show something in fourth seat over 2♣. If partner does reopen with 2♦, for example, you can bid 2NT/3♣ to show your general values, and sign off in 3♠ if nothing good happens. If partner has weak clubs that can hardly be worse than 2NT (and with something in clubs they'll bid 3NT).

[KingCovert]

I agree with DavidKok. Reading the discussion in the thread so far, I think some are not using the auction to contextualize North's hand.

You can decide with what odds you think partner is holding the A♣, but, short of the A♣ you have exactly one stopper in clubs when playing in No-Trump. The only way you're not getting a club lead is if East is void. Now, there only figure to be 2 clubs left in the deck. So.... You have some things in your favour. It's far from probable though.

Rather, your partner is almost guaranteed to have a second suit or long spades to find a rebid, and those bids will all be available to partner at the 2-level. You have almost all your values in the red suits, including two aces. And, I can think of a lot of layouts that make 4♠ and not 3NT, but, very few if any that will make 3NT but not 4♠. Including many 5-2 fits that will play just fine.

If you take just 5 seconds to actually look at the hand, and not just count and say, "Well, this is my bid because ... <insert reasons>", if you resist the urge to just bid on auto-pilot. You'll quickly see that this hand screams to play a suit contract. You bid 2NT/3NT at your peril.

So, what bid preserves the ability to play a suit contract and doesn't mislead partner? Pass seems clear.

[apollo1201]

KingCovert, on 2020-July-13, 14:51, said:

You'll quickly see that this hand screams to play a suit contract. You bid 2NT/3NT at your peril.
So, what bid preserves the ability to play a suit contract and doesn't mislead partner? Pass seems clear.

2NT (or 3NT) will be played only when partner deems it is a good contract, and he will clearly be in a better position to judge if I tell him straight away what I have (2 S, 2 or 3 H, 2 to 4 or sometimes 5 bad D, and C stopped, with a prime 10 up to a lousy 12-count).
If we belong in a suit, partner will elaborate his hand. Persisting with 3NT could be right on some hands but clearly not this one. I don’t know how you can catch up’after a pass.

[DavidKok]

With two aces I think this is not a lousy 12-count. Furthermore the club stopper is as empty as it could be. I think the risk of partner passing 2NT while we could make 4♠ is too great. With pass I'll get more information about partner's hand for free, and then I am in a much better position to invite the second time around (with 3♣ over X/2♦/2♥/2♠) or perhaps even bid game (if partner jumps), just to give an example.

KingCovert hit the nail on the head: don't just count points and/or length, think of a way to find which contract (hopefully game) to bid and how to get there.

[KingCovert]

apollo1201, on 2020-July-13, 15:29, said:

2NT (or 3NT) will be played only when partner deems it is a good contract, and he will clearly be in a better position to judge if I tell him straight away what I have (2 S, 2 or 3 H, 2 to 4 or sometimes 5 bad D, and C stopped, with a prime 10 up to a lousy 12-count).
If we belong in a suit, partner will elaborate his hand. Persisting with 3NT could be right on some hands but clearly not this one. I don’t know how you can catch up’after a pass.

I'm not sure that I agree that partner would do better setting this contract, but, let's assume you're right. Why can't our club holding be KJTXX? or KJTX? or KT9X? or AJTX? Or any number of absolutely solid club holdings that produce two maybe even three stoppers due to how well situated we know them to be? To bid any number of NT with this hand, when you can often have a holding such as that, is to mislead partner. Partner will often set the wrong contract after a bid like that.

Rather, precisely because we know the club situation, and we know the resulting implication that partner VERY LIKELY has a distributional hand on this auction, and because we have two side-suit aces and 10 points in suits that figure to matter opposite partner's likely singleton or void in clubs, we're absolutely better situated to set the contract or make the appropriate correction/invitation after partner patterns out.

It would be incredibly poor bridge to allow the opponents to play two of a minor, and partner is extremely likely to have a hand that can compete. In fact, the only hand that he'd have that may pass 2♣ would be a 5=3=3=2 ~12 HCP hand that would struggle to make 1NT on such a poor deal. But, I'll just emphasize again, it's not likely he has this distribution given the club situation.

As for how you catch up after a pass? If partner rebids 2♠, just raise game. If partner rebids a red suit, you can jump to 3♠ (or even cuebid clubs now). You are showing values and no spade fit, but, a spade preference. You even have the ability for partner to take a free 4♥ bid on the way to game, sometimes. For example,

---

---

---

This is a rather advanced concept, but, one does have to learn how to assess the qualities of a hand and know how to upgrade or downgrade their hand in various respects in an auction. It's not simply enough to know the agreed meaning of a bid. You have to be able to exercise judgement, and players that bid No-Trump on hands like this clearly need to develop that skill further.

I'll perform a simulation on this sequence to highlight just how poor No-Trump plays. I think you'll be surprised.

[apollo1201]

[quote name='KingCovert' timestamp='1594681828' post='
players that bid No-Trump on hands like this clearly need to develop that skill further.
[/quote]
Probably no more than those who jump on a worthless doubleton in a suit partner only promised 5, I guess.

[KingCovert]

apollo1201, on 2020-July-14, 09:18, said:

Probably no more than those who jump on a worthless doubleton in a suit partner only promised 5, I guess.

It is not ideal, I'd rather cuebid, but I'm also worried partner might reasonably interpret a cuebid as 4-card support after they introduce a new suit. But, consider what it conveys:

1) Exactly 2 card support.
2) A hand that is unreasonably strong for their pass.
3) A hand that did not want to bid NT over 2♣, therefore a hand that wants to play a suit contract.

Now, partner can pass 3♠ in such sequences. 5-2 fits are perfectly okay. I'd be happy to play in a 4-3 heart fit in game here, if partner deemed it right. You seem to think that 7-card fits can never play well? Why? That seems like incredibly narrow thinking. This hand is surely going to score better (on average) in a 5-2 or 4-3 fit than in No Trump.

[luckyloser]

thank you all for your comments! my conclusion is the following
I am pretty sure that game in notrump is much less likely than in 4s or even some other suit. opps are going to lead c and may well get in to run them.
however the first bid can only be pass, 2s, 2nt or 3c. all have drawbacks as you pointed out. I gave the actual pass and opener rebid s. interestingly most of you did not make it clear what to bid now. for me any number of nt is out. pass, 3c, 3s and 4s remains. what is your opinion? does opener at least have a sound opening bid with good s? if we think yes, then our pass could not be good. is game likely? should we invite game (3s or 3c) or bid it and will p know to accept with just a smidgeon of reserves?

[DavidKok]

I would bid 3♣ on the second round, inviting opener to bid 3NT with some points in clubs (although there is a decent chance it will just confuse them). After anything but 3NT I jump to 4♠ on the third round. If you want to bid a bit less aggressive you could invite with 3♠ on the second round instead.

Keep in mind that, at least in theory, opener has very good negative inferences about your hand on an auction like 1♠-(2♣)-P-(P)-2♠-(P)-3♠. The 2♠ bid is limited (to let's say about 16), so for you to invite you need some points. Therefore you must have a strong hand unsuitable to bid on the first round - so no 3 card support in spades (in fact, exactly 2), at most 4 hearts and at most 4 diamonds. Furthermore with a shape like 2=4=4=3 and 8 points you'd double on the first round, so you promise at least 4 clubs (your most probable hand is 2=(43)=4 with some wasted values in clubs). To go even further, if you had a double club stopper you would always suggest NT with a shape like that, so you also promise at most a single club control.

With all that in mind, I would bid 3♠ with a hand on the lower end of my range (so about 8-10) or a hand without a club stopper, and 3♣ with a stronger hand (11+) and a club stopper, so partner can consider 3NT (or 3♠ /4♠). If partner has something like ♣Kx then we have a double stopper provided South bids 3NT. A lot of people overcall 2♣ on 'only' a five-card suit, so while unlikely you might as well ask on the way to 4♠.

[luckyloser]

I agree on your analysis. however I think 3 s does not do justice to your hand. it shows , as you suggest 9-10 p. you have a (modern) opening bid! also 3c does not raise the level more than 3s nor does it compel to game it merely gives a strong invitation. I consider it the only possible bid now with 3s far too timid. I would prefer 4s to 3s.
you also know something about openers hand:
he was more or less compelled to reopen with short clubs. he would dble with 5332 or 5341 or 5431. he did not. he either has very long and strong s or a void in c with no other suit. so he is very likely to hold either excellent s or more likely at least 6. your 2 aces will pull full weight. a Q behind the strong opp also. I dont think you could be stronger for a mere invitation, so make the strongest possible.

[DavidKok]

Opener would rebid 2♠ holding a minimum six-card suit even with some length and values in clubs - for example something like 6=2=3=2 and 11-12 points. Opposite that hand it is not clear at all what the best contract is - 3♠, 4♠ or even 3NT might be best. It is even possible some of your heart values are wasted, and with the duplication in diamonds it is plausible you can take only 9 tricks. I therefore suggest 3♣ to get to hear from partner again.

I also prefer 4♠ to 3♠, but as I said I don't see the downside in bidding 3♣ 'along the way'.

[KingCovert]

I would bid 4♠ immediately at this point. After a 2♠ rebid, I don't think there is any sequence in which I would be confident to play anything other than a spade contract, and I refuse not to play game on this auction and with this hand.

It won't always make, but, declarer won't have to make any guesses in the play at least. You would assume that at worst there is only one potential finesse that could fail. It should have really good odds. Probably ~70%, that's enough for me.