[raspeball]

nullve, on 2020-April-29, 03:52, said:

No Puppet variant can beat regular Stayman when Responder is 4-4 in the majors. In fact, it can only do worse. Here's why:

Suppose Responder is 4-4 in the majors. Then,

* if Opener has a major suit M, the best possible auction would be one where the M fit gets established without Responder revealing that he also has 4 OM

(Compare e.g. your action

1N-2N(1)
3♣(2)-3♦(3)
3♥(4)-4♥
P

(1) puppet to 3♣
(2) forced
(3) 4 S and 4 H
(4) 4-5 H

with the regular Stayman auction (which also happens to be the LIPS (= Low Information Puppet Stayman) auction)

1N-2♣
2♥-4♥
P.)

* if Opener has no major, the best possible auction would be one where he shows that (which is equivalent to answering 'No' to the two questions 'Do you have 4 or 5 hearts?' and 'Do you have 4 or 5 spades?') and Responder doesn't show a specific major

(Compare your auction

1N-2N(1)
3♣(2)-3♦(3)
3N(4)-P

(1) puppet to 3♣
(2) forced
(3) 4 S and 4 H
(4) no major

or the LIPS auction

1N-2♣(1)
2♦(2)-3N(3)
P

(1) like regular Stayman, but not used on choice-of-game type hands with only one 4c major (which go through 1N-3♣, or LIPS proper)
(2) no major
(3) 4 S and 4 H

with the regular Stayman auction

1N-2♣
2♦-3N(1)
P

(1) 4 S or 4H

.)

Good point!
The 4-4 major hand should then bid 2♣.
If the 4-4 major hands can be taken out, that make the 3 ♦ free for other purposes:
1nt-2nt
3♣-?
3♦=one 3 card major, not interested in the other major(Opener relays with 3♥, and responder bids 3♠ with 3 card hearts and 3nt with 3 card spades)
3♥=4 ♠, not interested in ♥.
3♠=4 ♥, not interested in ♠.
3nt=3-3 in majors.

Another option is to use 3♦ as awm suggested, but with opener always relaying for information (So that defenders does not know if he has the other major or not, if we ends up in 3nt)

[nullve]

raspeball, on 2020-April-29, 05:46, said:

Another option is to use 3♦ as awm suggested, but with opener always relaying for information (So that defenders does not know if he has the other major or not, if we ends up in 3nt)

Well, I think what I suggested, which was

nullve, on 2020-April-28, 07:49, said:

3♦ = GF, 4 cards in one major, 3 in the other
...3♥ = no 5c major
......3♠ = 4 H and 3 S
......3N = 4 S and 3 H
...3♠ = 5 H (=> e.g. 4♦ = wants partner to declare 4♥)
...3N = 5 S (=> e.g. 4♥ = wants partner to declare 4♠)

, is even better, but let me explain.

If Opener has a 5c major M, then he will eventually be forced to reveal it, because he has the kind of hand that should play 4M opposite Responder's promised 3 or 4c support. So temporarily concealing the suit by using a mandatory 3♥ relay can be no better than letting 3♥ deny 5 M. It's actually worse, because if the contract is going to be 4M after

1N-2N
3♣-3♦
3♥(1)

(1) relay

anyway, because Opener has 5 M,

* Responder will have revealed whether he is 4-3 or 3-4 in the majors [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3M+1 = 5 M];
* a lead-directing double is available to Advancer over 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥-3♠ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♠ = 5 H]
* only Opener can be declarer in 4♥ after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♠ = 5 H];
* only Responder can be declarer in 4♠ after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥-3♠ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3N = 5 S].

[raspeball]

nullve, on 2020-April-29, 08:00, said:

Well, I think what I suggested, which was


, is even better, but let me explain.

If Opener has a 5c major M, then he will eventually be forced to reveal it, because he has the kind of hand that should play 4M opposite Responder's promised 3 or 4c support. So temporarily concealing the suit by using a mandatory 3♥ relay can be no better than letting 3♥ deny 5 M. It's actually worse, because if the contract is going to be 4M after

1N-2N
3♣-3♦
3♥(1)

(1) relay

anyway, because Opener has 5 M,

* Responder will have revealed whether he is 4-3 or 3-4 in the majors [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3M+1 = 5 M];
* a lead-directing double is available to Advancer over 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥-3♠ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♠ = 5 H]
* only Opener can be declarer in 4♥ after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♠ = 5 H];
* only Responder can be declarer in 4♠ after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3♥-3♠ [compare with the situation after 1N-2N; 3♣-3♦; 3N = 5 S].

You are correct, your way is better if 3♦ shows 4-3 or 3-4 in the majors (I did not read carefully enough what you wrote, and not even what i wrote myself !)

But in the sequence:
1nt-2nt
3♣-3♦
?
I dont see why opener cannot bid 3♥ with 5 card hearts sometimes (Especially if he is not afraid of a lead directing double of 3 ♠, and he prefer to declare the hand himself). If responder shows 4 hearts, opener can play play 4hearts without showing that he has 5 hearts:
1nt-2nt;
3♣-3♦
3♥-3♠
4♥

If responder bid 3nt, opener can still correct to 4♥.
And I assume that opener can jump directly to 4♥/♠ over 3♦, if he think that he should declare



Another (stupid) idea that is that opener shows that he might or might not have one major:

1nt-2nt
?
3♣=Denies 4 or 5 card spades.(Opener might or might not have 4 or 5 card hearts).
3♦=Denies 4 or 5 card hearts.(Opener might or might not have 4 or 5 card spades).
With both majors one possibility is that opener bids 3nt directly (Leaking information if responder only was interested in 5 card majors). This leaves room for responder to choose who should declare.

After 3♣ from opener, responder bid 3nt if he is not interested in hearts, or bids 3♥ with 3 card hearts, and 3♠ with 4 hearts.
Simillary after 3♦ from opener responder bids 3nt with no interest in spades, and 3♥ with 4 spades and 3♠ with 3 card spades.

[glen]

Fun thread, thanks everybody

1NT-2NT Modified Puppet, after 2NT:

3♣: any hand except not five hearts and hands five spades or without a four card major can bid 3♦

• 3♦: four ♥s, 3♥ asks (3NT 3-4-3-3, 3♠ slam interest, 4♥ to play), 3♠: 5♠s, 3NT: not four ♥s or five ♠s
  
• 3♥: four ♠s, 3♠ asks (3NT 4-3-3-3, 4♣ slam interest, 4♠ to play), 3NT: fewer than 4♠s
  
• 3♠: 0-2 ♠s, fewer than 4 ♥s (should be 3 ♥s exactly)
  
• 3NT: 3 ♠s, 0-3♥s

3♦: asks doubleton or shorter major, only bid or 3♥ with five ♥s, can have five ♠s or no four card or longer major

• 3♥: 0-2 ♥s, 3-4 ♠s
  
• 3♠: 0-2 ♠s, 3-4 ♥s
  
• 3NT: 3-4 ♠s, 3-4 ♥s

3♥: describe ♥ length only, with four or five ♥s:

• 3♠: 3 ♥s
  
• 3NT: 0-2 ♥s
  
• 4♣: slam interest 4♥s
  
• 4♥: 4♥s to play

3NT: to play, usually no five or four card major though can be flat with no suit interest

[nullve]

raspeball, on 2020-April-29, 10:06, said:

I dont see why opener cannot bid 3♥ with 5 card hearts sometimes (Especially if he is not afraid of a lead directing double of 3 ♠, and he prefer to declare the hand himself). If responder shows 4 hearts, opener can play play 4hearts without showing that he has 5 hearts:
1nt-2nt;
3♣-3♦
3♥-3♠
4♥

If responder bid 3nt, opener can still correct to 4♥.

True. I didn't think of that.

raspeball, on 2020-April-29, 10:06, said:

And I assume that opener can jump directly to 4♥/♠ over 3♦, if he think that he should declare

Yes, but at the cost of revealing that he has honours he wants to protect.

[raspeball]

nullve, on 2020-April-29, 10:33, said:

True. I didn't think of that.


Yes, but at the cost of revealing that he has honours he wants to protect.

Thank you for many good suggestions and correction of ideas that don't work!
I think my prefered variant so far is something like this:

2nt= Forces 3♣. Can be used if responder want to play 3♣.
If responder is game-forcing he has one of the following hands:
* 4-3 in the majors.
* One 4 card major suit(0-2 in the other) (Changed from previous version where this showed 3 card major and 0-2 in the other).
* 3-3 in the majors.

With all these hands responder can show his hand, and opener does not have to reveal more than wheter he has support for responder.

Hands with 4-4 in the majors bid 2♣ initially. Hands with one 3 card major and 0-2 in the other have to find another way to bid their hand (If responder have singleton or void in a major it could be a good idea to show the short suit instead).

Responses:

1nt-2nt
3♣?
3♦=4-3/3-4 in majors. Responses as suggested by nullve (But giving opener some freedom with how he wants to bid hands with 5 card majors).
3♥=4 card spades. Not interested in hearts.
3♠=4 card hearts. Not interested in spades
3nt=3-3 in majors (And normally 5 card+ in a minor)

[nullve]

nullve, on 2020-April-28, 07:49, said:

Another idea:

* Use the Jacoby transfer 2M-1 also as "M Stayman" on choice-of-game type hands with 4 M and 0-2 OM. (Problem: Must figure out how to sign off in 3N on these hands after 1N-2M-1; 2M(= 2-3 M or 4M333). Maybe use 3♠ over 1N-2M-1; 2M as a puppet to 3N?)
* Use

Should have been 'marionette to 3N', as Opener must be allowed to bypass 3N with 4M333 or, say, 3 M and a weak doubleton in OM.

In an otherwise standard rebid structure, how about

1N-2♦; 2♥-3♠ = a) autosplinter (with 6+ H and 0-1 S) b) CoG w/ 4 H and 2 S

1N-2♦; 2♥-3♠; ?:

3N = to play opposite b)
...P = b)
...other = a)
4♣+ = wants to avoid 3N opposite b)

?

Something similar could be done when M=♠ by using Stayman on all GF hands with 5+S and 5+ H, temporarily freeing up the sequence 1N-2♥; 2♠-3♥.

[raspeball]

nullve, on 2020-April-30, 04:25, said:

Should have been 'marionette to 3N', as Opener must be allowed to bypass 3N with 4M333 or, say, 3 M and a weak doubleton in OM.

In an otherwise standard rebid structure, how about

1N-2♦; 2♥-3♠ = a) autosplinter (with 6+ H and 0-1 S) b) CoG w/ 4 H and 2 S

1N-2♦; 2♥-3♠; ?:

3N = to play opposite b)
...P = b)
...other = a)
4♣+ = wants to avoid 3N opposite b)

?

Something similar could be done when M=♠ by using Stayman on all GF hands with 5+S and 5+ H, temporarily freeing up the sequence 1N-2♥; 2♠-3♥.

Yes. That is possible. I think one of the swedish systems ~30 years ago (Super Standard?) used transfers to show 4 card majors.

If you use the sequence: 1nt-2♥;2♠-3♥ to show 4 card spades you need to put the 5-5 major hands elsewhere. As you say, stayman is one possibility.
One solution that i have seen is:
1nt-2♣
2♦-3♦=5-5 in major. Game invitational or stronger. But then you loose the natural 3♦ in this sequence.

[nullve]

raspeball, on 2020-April-30, 06:37, said:

One solution that i have seen is:
1nt-2♣
2♦-3♦=5-5 in major. Game invitational or stronger. But then you loose the natural 3♦ in this sequence.

Some versions of Smolen use one or both of Responder's 4m rebids on GF 5-5 hands.

E.g. the one described here (by Ana Roth? Paul Lavings?), which in a little more detail seems to be

1N-2♣; 2♦-?:

(...)
3M = GF, 4 M and 5+ OM
...(...)
...3N = suggestion opposite 4 M and 5 OM
......P = 4 M and 5 OM, not slammish
......4♣ = 4 M and 6+ OM, slammish
......4♦ = 4 M and 6+ OM, not slammish
......(...)
...(...)
(...)
4♣ = 5+ S and 5+ H, slammish
4♦ = 5+ S and 5+ H, not slammish
(...).

[raspeball]

nullve, on 2020-April-30, 10:33, said:

Some versions of Smolen use one or both of Responder's 4m rebids on GF 5-5 hands.

E.g. the one described here (by Ana Roth? Paul Lavings?), which in a little more detail seems to be

1N-2♣; 2♦-?:

(...)
3M = GF, 4 M and 5+ OM
...(...)
...3N = suggestion opposite 4 M and 5 OM
......P = 4 M and 5 OM, not slammish
......4♣ = 4 M and 6+ OM, slammish
......4♦ = 4 M and 6+ OM, not slammish
......(...)
...(...)
(...)
4♣ = 5+ S and 5+ H, slammish
4♦ = 5+ S and 5+ H, not slammish
(...).

This is OK as long as you have another way in your system to show 5-5 majors and game invitational strength.

Another way to give responder chance to show more hands is to use responders second bid as transfer as well, one option is (there probably is better structures available):
1nt-2♥
2♠-?
2nt=Transfer to clubs (Both game forcing and invitational plus is possible here)
3♣=Transfer to diamonds (Both game forcing and invitational plus is possible here)
3♦=Transfer to hearts(invitational to game+?)
3♥= 6 card spades, invitational to game/slam
3♠= 5 card spades. Choice of game, or some stronger hands?
3nt=4 card spades, choice of games.

You loose the 2nt rebid to show 5 spades balanced and game invitational. But if your system allows, that hand can hand can be shown with normal stayman and rebidding 2 ♠..

[Vampyr]

raspeball, on 2020-April-30, 06:37, said:

Yes. That is possible. I think one of the swedish systems ~30 years ago (Super Standard?) used transfers to show 4 card majors.

If you use the sequence: 1nt-2♥;2♠-3♥ to show 4 card spades you need to put the 5-5 major hands elsewhere. As you say, stayman is one possibility.
One solution that i have seen is:
1nt-2♣
2♦-3♦=5-5 in major. Game invitational or stronger. But then you loose the natural 3♦ in this sequence.

We are simple souls. We just bid 1NT-4♣ for 5-5 majors.

[nullve]

Yes, transfer rebids are probably close to standard, anyway, among pairs willing to play 1N-2N as some sci-fi [P?p?]uppet.

Then one option that solves the related problem of finding the 5-3 OM fit when Opener has 5 OM and Responder has 5 M and 3 OM, is:

1N-[2M-1]; 2M-?:

(...)
3m-1 = GF, 4+ m
3♦(M=♠) = INV+, 5+ H [if you wish]
3M-1 = a) INV+, 6+ M b) CoG w/ 5 M and 2 OM
...3M = would reject the invite in a)
......P = a) with INV values only
......3N = b)
......other = a) with GF values
...3N = accepts game opposite a), to play opposite b)
...other = accepts game opposite a), wants to play 4 M opposite b)
3M = CoG, 5 M and 3 OM
(...)
3N = CoG, 4 M and 2 OM
(...)

[glen]

Another design with 2NT forces 3♣, then

3♦: asks for five card major, 3♥=no, 3♠=five, 3NT=five ♥s
3♥: asks in spades, 3♠=four, 3NT=fewer than 4, 4♠=five
3♠: 3 ♥s and two or fewer ♠s
3NT: 4 ♠s and 3 ♥s

3♦ - 3 ♥ - 3♠ shows four ♥s

With 3 ♥s and two or fewer ♠s bid either 3♦ or 3♠
With 3 ♠s and two or fewer ♥s bid either 3♦ or 3♥

There are designs where 2NT only asks for five in one of the majors, like:

2NT asks if five ♠s, 3♣=no
After 2NT-3♣:

3♦: asks if four ♠s, 3♥=no
3♠: asks for five ♥s, 3NT=no
3NT: 4 ♥s

3♦ - 3 ♥ - 3♠ asks for five ♥s, 3NT=no

With this second structure there can be sequences where opener has responder play the major suit contract

[raspeball]

raspeball, on 2020-April-30, 00:26, said:

Thank you for many good suggestions and correction of ideas that don't work!
I think my prefered variant so far is something like this:

2nt= Forces 3♣. Can be used if responder want to play 3♣.
If responder is game-forcing he has one of the following hands:
* 4-3 in the majors.
* One 4 card major suit(0-2 in the other) (Changed from previous version where this showed 3 card major and 0-2 in the other).
* 3-3 in the majors.

With all these hands responder can show his hand, and opener does not have to reveal more than wheter he has support for responder.

Hands with 4-4 in the majors bid 2♣ initially. Hands with one 3 card major and 0-2 in the other have to find another way to bid their hand (If responder have singleton or void in a major it could be a good idea to show the short suit instead).

Responses:

1nt-2nt
3♣?
3♦=4-3/3-4 in majors. Responses as suggested by nullve (But giving opener some freedom with how he wants to bid hands with 5 card majors).
3♥=4 card spades. Not interested in hearts.
3♠=4 card hearts. Not interested in spades
3nt=3-3 in majors (And normally 5 card+ in a minor)

I now think that it is better for responder to bid 3♥/3♠ with 3 card in the suit bid, and 0-2 in the unbid major. This wrongsides if you have a 5-3 fit (Or good 4-3 fit with weakness in the other major). But it reduces the chance that the opponent have a useful lead directing double if we end up in 3nt. The structere then becomes:


1nt-2nt
3♣?
3♦=4-3/3-4 in majors. Responses as suggested by nullve (But giving opener some freedom with how he wants to bid hands with 5 card majors).
3♥=3 card hearts. 0-2 spades.
3♠=3 card spades. 0-2 hearts
3nt=3-3 in majors (And normally 5 card+ in a minor)


If then also using transfer extentions that forces to game, a hand with only 4 card support can be shown there.
I like:
1nt-2♥
2♠-?
... 3♠=5 card ♠. Choice of games
... 3nt=4 card ♠. Choice of games (In the structure I am thinking about it will most likely only be 4♠ and 2♥)

[raspeball]

raspeball, on 2020-May-02, 03:13, said:

I now think that it is better for responder to bid 3♥/3♠ with 3 card in the suit bid, and 0-2 in the unbid major. This wrongsides if you have a 5-3 fit (Or good 4-3 fit with weakness in the other major). But it reduces the chance that the opponent have a useful lead directing double if we end up in 3nt. The structere then becomes:


1nt-2nt
3♣?
3♦=4-3/3-4 in majors. Responses as suggested by nullve (But giving opener some freedom with how he wants to bid hands with 5 card majors).
3♥=3 card hearts. 0-2 spades.
3♠=3 card spades. 0-2 hearts
3nt=3-3 in majors (And normally 5 card+ in a minor)


If then also using transfer extentions that forces to game, a hand with only 4 card support can be shown there.
I like:
1nt-2♥
2♠-?
... 3♠=5 card ♠. Choice of games
... 3nt=4 card ♠. Choice of games (In the structure I am thinking about it will most likely only be 4♠ and 2♥)

I think now it is better to use standard puppet after all, like some of you have been telling me for a long time.
I found this old conversation link.
The reason this is better, is that you find out at once if opener has 5 card major, leaving responder more room. Showing the 5 cars suit mainly hurts if you were interested in the other major, and have less than 3 card in openers major.

The gain is that responder after a normal puppet sequence can show more hands:
The hands with 3-1/1-3 in majors and 5-4/4-5 in the minors were shown by this sequence:

3♣ = no 5M

3♦ = (31)(54)
3♥ = 4♠
3♠ = 4♥
3N = To Play

3M = 5M

The downside offcourse is extra chances for lead directing doubles and more to remember.

EDIT:
Still possible to do some fancy stuff if you want, letting opener bid 3♦ with 5 card♥ and 3♥ with 5 card♠.
This allows responder to choose who should be declearer, and also give a cheap slamtry:

1nt-2nt
3♦(1)-3♥(2)

(1)=5 card ♥
(2)=mild slamtry (1-3-5-4 or 1-3-4-5 ??)

[dokoko]

Many ideas in this thread have some merit in hiding opener's shape but have serious drawbacks for slam purposes.

raspeball, on 2020-May-04, 12:20, said:

...

Still possible to do some fancy stuff if you want, letting opener bid 3♦ with 5 card♥ and 3♥ with 5 card♠.
This allows responder to choose who should be declearer, and also give a cheap slamtry:

1nt-2nt
3♦(1)-3♥(2)

(1)=5 card ♥
(2)=mild slamtry (1-3-5-4 or 1-3-4-5 ??)

We bid 3♦ with 5♠ (and 3♥ with 5♥). This caters for opener having 54 in the majors (which is acceptable as we play) and responder having 42 in the majors (and using 2NT instead of 2♣ to hide information when no 4-4-fit is present).

After 1NT-2NT;3♦:
3♥ agrees ♠
3♠ shows 4♥
3NT is to play

After 1NT-2NT;3♥:
3♠ puppets to 3NT (to play there or agreeing ♥)
3NT shows 4♠

Responder avoids to bid the major which he (might) want to play in.