[straube]

Matchpoints both vul I pick up xx Axxxx Axxxxx void. Partner opens 1H (5cd, 10-15) and next hand bids 3S.

We play Thrump doubles here. The meanings of my likeliest bids are....

4C-generic slam try in hearts
4D-creates a force for hearts, asks partner to get involved if next hand bids 4S
4H-doesn't create a force, can be hoping to hit spades or overbidding a limit raise hand, etc. Partner can still act over 4S if he has a strong opinion.
4S-RKC
5H-asks 6H with spade control

I don't think we have Exclusion here.

[Cyberyeti]

What is 5m ? from your options I think I bid 5♥, there's always the chance that opps take a phantom over 6♥ if I don't leak too much info.

[FelicityR]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-22, 03:08, said:

What is 5m ? from your options I think I bid 5♥, there's always the chance that opps take a phantom over 6♥ if I don't leak too much info.

I like this, too, given the range of options available. Two losing cards in the opponents' suit ♠s, and everything else covered with controls, gives partner the information he/she needs in one bid whether to progress to slam.

The other reason why I like this is that a 4♦ bid allows them to compete in ♠s with a 4♠ bid easily. Now it is more difficult for the partner of the pre-emptor to judge whether 5♠ is a viable option.

[straube]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-22, 03:08, said:

What is 5m ?

To play. Direct bids of game are to play. We have to show fit before Exclusion becomes an alternative.

[Gerardo]

what is 4NT here?

[johnu]

It isn't one of the options, but I would bid 4♦ showing diamonds and a game force. If opener has 2 or 3 small diamonds, you have at least 1 and maybe 2 diamond losers. There is a possible heart loser, and the obvious possible 2 spade losers. That's a lot of losers to be taken care of.

I don't think it is a long term winner to not be able to bid 4 of a minor as natural and forcing. By a passed hand, you can use 4 of a minor to show concentrated values and heart support, a limit raise or maybe stronger playing hand, but still a passed hand.

[mikeh]

5H, driving to slam opposite a spade control, opposite a 10-15 hcp opening hand, strikes me as lunacy. What is there about our hand that suggests we have no diamond losers if he has a stiff spade?

I don’t like the methods, which seem to me to focus unduly on multiple ways to show strong heart raises at the expense of the minors, but if forced to assume that opening 1M forecloses constructive bidding in the minors, presumably because we have the agreement that we always hold hearts on these auctions, I’d make the strong but not slamming 4D

[straube]

We got the method from Meckwell. They may still be bad methods but they probably aren't crazy bad. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

[mikeh]

straube, on 2020-February-22, 20:01, said:

We got the method from Meckwell. They may still be bad methods but they probably aren't crazy bad. Thanks for all the feedback so far.

That puts me in my place, lol! I’d be interested in how they make forcing bids in a minor. I’m not arguing about them being better theorists than I am😀. But I don’t see the benefit of these methods unless there is another way to show a minor, do they, for example, give up on a natural 3N? Or use double? Either would have an obvious cost.

[straube]

mikeh, on 2020-February-22, 22:32, said:

That puts me in my place, lol! I’d be interested in how they make forcing bids in a minor. I’m not arguing about them being better theorists than I am😀. But I don’t see the benefit of these methods unless there is another way to show a minor, do they, for example, give up on a natural 3N? Or use double? Either would have an obvious cost.

Well they use Thrump doubles (GF asking for a stopper) and their 3N by responder is (of course) natural with a stopper. So I don't know their follow ups when they are slamming with a minor, but I imagine they could start with double and then pull 3N to show that minor....they probably learn something useful (about that stopper) on the way.

If you'd like to know, if the bidding starts 1D (3S) their dbl is Thrump, their 4m is 5H/5m and their 4H is 6H.

[mikeh]

straube, on 2020-February-23, 00:14, said:

Well they use Thrump doubles (GF asking for a stopper) and their 3N by responder is (of course) natural with a stopper. So I don't know their follow ups when they are slamming with a minor, but I imagine they could start with double and then pull 3N to show that minor....they probably learn something useful (about that stopper) on the way.

If you'd like to know, if the bidding starts 1D (3S) their dbl is Thrump, their 4m is 5H/5m and their 4H is 6H.

That makes sense, especially within a forcing club structure. If opener rebids 3N, then it would be rare that they can make a minor slam, and on such hands, responder will usually be strong enough to bid over 3N. I like it. Thanks.

[nullve]

straube, on 2020-February-23, 00:14, said:

their 3N by responder is (of course) natural with a stopper.

I've long been toying with the idea that 3N is always ART if bid directly over a 3-level bid by an opponent.

For this to work, a double ("takeout" (a misnomer!), as usual) must somehow include the "3N NAT" hands. But that doesn't work very well if partner is inclined to respond at the 4-level even when 3N could be the last making game. So if (3x) is the last bid made by the oppoenents, the idea is to play

...(3x)-X-?:

P = LoTT-based (so much more frequent than someone with no knowledge of LoTT might expect)
3y = NAT, NF
3N = "lebensohl"*, but would have passed 3N (NAT) over (3x) using standard competitive methods
...P = would have bid 3N (NAT) over (3x) using standard competitive methods
...4♣ = P/C, analogous to 3♣ over lebensohl 2N
4-level: possibly ART, would hardly have passed a NAT 3N bid over (3x) using standard competetitive methods

* This is another crazy idea that (iirc) Paul Marston seems to have come up with before me. One I've mentioned before is a 2♣ opening showing 11-13 (or so) BAL. I'm confident lebensohl 3N is the least crazy of the two, though.

[straube]

I see how opener can play 3N when responder has a stopper. What happens when responder doesn't have a stopper but opener does?