[Cyberyeti]

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basic system Acol 4M

We open 1♣ with 5♠/6♣

We open 1♠ with 5-5 on most hands barring 2 types, 2 good suits but not an especially good hand, and really good hands

3N tends to be very flat 3433/3343 with at least 1.5 heart stops

[pescetom]

If I understand rightly he may have either a good 5♠/6♣ or a really good 5♠/5♣.
What would 4NT be here and what would 5♣ be in reply?

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2020-February-22, 10:35, said:

If I understand rightly he may have either a good 5♠/6♣ or a really good 5♠/5♣.
What would 4NT be here and what would 5♣ be in reply?

That is the question, could it be quantitative ? could you decide to bid like this 2542 ? could it be keycard in spades ?

If you do bid 4N partner does bid 5♣ but what that meant would not be clear (if it was keycard, it would be 0/3 irrespective of voids)

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-22, 11:12, said:

That is the question, could it be quantitative ? could you decide to bid like this 2542 ? could it be keycard in spades ?

If you do bid 4N partner does bid 5♣ but what that meant would not be clear (if it was keycard, it would be 0/3 irrespective of voids)

For me you already made your quantitative bid which was 3N. But what 4N does mean depends upon partnership agreements I guess.
We have a meta-rule that under duress 4N is keycard for the raised/jump bid suit or the last bid major or partner's only suit, so spades here.
I would start with that which will pin down the missing top honours in spades.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2020-February-22, 12:11, said:

For me you already made your quantitative bid which was 3N. But what 4N does mean depends upon partnership agreements I guess.
We have a meta-rule that under duress 4N is keycard for the raised/jump bid suit or the last bid major or partner's only suit, so spades here.
I would start with that which will pin down the missing top honours in spades.

In which case partner shows 0/3 keys with 5♣.

[straube]

4S has to be forcing. Responder's 4N rebid is the only bid available to show interest in a club slam.

[mikeh]

My meta rule is that if a player offers 3N as the contract and partner pulls then 4N says that I really want to play in no trump

Here, I will assume 5=6 and, since I lack the heart Ace and have the worst possible holding in spades, I bid 4N

[hrothgar]

Interesting hand

I suspect that IF slam is making, then you want to be playing in NT

I'm tempted to punt 6NT and be prepared to apologize if wrong

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-February-22, 14:55, said:

My meta rule is that if a player offers 3N as the contract and partner pulls then 4N says that I really want to play in no trump

Here, I will assume 5=6 and, since I lack the heart Ace and have the worst possible holding in spades, I bid 4N

This is what partner did and I think it's wrong AKQxx, (2 red cards) AQxxxx is the sort of thing I'd tab pd with where a slam is great, and if they're both diamonds you may well make 7

[cherdano]

Curious. It looks like Mike and I are the only ones who think 4S is non-forcing, non-forward going. For those who think 4S is forcing, or that our hand is worth a slam try, what exactly do you think partner should do with AKJxx - xx QT9xxx?

mikeh, on 2020-February-22, 14:55, said:

My meta rule is that if a player offers 3N as the contract and partner pulls then 4N says that I really want to play in no trump

I also agree with this.

Quote

Here, I will assume 5=6 and, since I lack the heart Ace and have the worst possible holding in spades, I bid 4N

I think this is close. E.g. if partner is AJxxx x x AQxxxx that annoying tenth trick in NT takes some work (as in, probably needs the diamond finesse), whereas 4S is cold on a 3-2 trump break.

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2020-February-22, 16:24, said:

Curious. It looks like Mike and I are the only ones who think 4S is non-forcing, non-forward going. For those who think 4S is forcing, or that our hand is worth a slam try, what exactly do you think partner should do with AKJxx - xx QT9xxx?

I also agree with this.


I think this is close. E.g. if partner is AJxxx x x AQxxxx that annoying tenth trick in NT takes some work (as in, probably needs the diamond finesse), whereas 4S is cold on a 3-2 trump break.

It's teams, I should have specified that

The first hand with a minimum, good spades and bad clubs might well be opened 1♠

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-22, 17:04, said:

It's teams, I should have specified that

The first hand with a minimum, good spades and bad clubs might well be opened 1♠

Seriously? With a minimum and 5=6 in the blacks, you open 1S?

How do you ever find clubs after, say, a 2R response? Let alone ever tell partner your clubs are longer than your spades? And for what benefit? It’s not like normal bidding has any trouble showing 5=6 blacks in many situations. All so you can play 4S as forcing in these everyday sequence?

Btw, playing 4S as non-forcing doesn’t mean responder can’t move towards slam. Were responder to hold, say, xxx AJx AJxx KJx, clearly he’d be silly to pass. Also, if opener has a huge hand, say AKQxx void Kx AQxxxx, he would be, imo, bidding 5S not 4S.

Having said that, there’s no doubt but that the style in which 4S is non-forcing will miss some good slams. Playing it as forcing will result in either having to have opener pass with minimum 5=6 hands, missing slams that way or playing 3N maybe down when a black suit game is cold, or in having opener pull 3N only to end up one trick too high.

Since games are more common than slams, and minimums far more common than maximums, I just don’t see 4S as forcing as being very sound.

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on 2020-February-22, 22:44, said:

Seriously? With a minimum and 5=6 in the blacks, you open 1S?

Plenty of people play this.

Some good pairs even. (Take a look at Washington standard)

[mikeh]

hrothgar, on 2020-February-23, 00:24, said:

Plenty of people play this.

Some good pairs even. (Take a look at Washington standard)

Steve Robinson does. I don’t know any other really good players who do. Now, of course a lot of really good players play a forcing club method so they don’t count. Do you know of any others?

Anyway, while I’m always willing to learn from discussion, I’m more interested in explanations than in ‘so and so plays this, therefore it’s good’. On another current thread I criticized the Op’s Methods, was told that they are Meckwell methods. That impressed me but didn’t persuade me. Then the OP gave more detail and I was not merely impressed but am thinking of suggesting this to my partners. I’m not at all inclined to suggest to anyone that they open 1S on 5=6 hands. Do you know any bridge reason to do so?

[KingCovert]

I don't understand. Why does the 3N bidder want to be the captain of this hand with none of the information? Surely 3N has described this hand, and if South wanted to investigate slam over a flat 13-15 (or 14-16), maybe 4♠ was the wrong bid. 4♠ seems to be a sincere offer to play 4♠ over a hand that couldn't double 1♥. I don't understand how 4N can be keycard.

[nullve]

KingCovert, on 2020-February-23, 01:37, said:

4♠ seems to be a sincere offer to play 4♠

Yes, even with 5-5 and "2 good suits but not an especially good hand".

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-22, 08:54, said:

We open 1♠ with 5-5 on most hands barring 2 types, 2 good suits but not an especially good hand, and really good hands

3N tends to be very flat 3433/3343 with at least 1.5 heart stops

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-February-22, 22:44, said:

Seriously? With a minimum and 5=6 in the blacks, you open 1S?

How do you ever find clubs after, say, a 2R response? Let alone ever tell partner your clubs are longer than your spades? And for what benefit? It’s not like normal bidding has any trouble showing 5=6 blacks in many situations. All so you can play 4S as forcing in these everyday sequence?

Btw, playing 4S as non-forcing doesn’t mean responder can’t move towards slam. Were responder to hold, say, xxx AJx AJxx KJx, clearly he’d be silly to pass. Also, if opener has a huge hand, say AKQxx void Kx AQxxxx, he would be, imo, bidding 5S not 4S.

Having said that, there’s no doubt but that the style in which 4S is non-forcing will miss some good slams. Playing it as forcing will result in either having to have opener pass with minimum 5=6 hands, missing slams that way or playing 3N maybe down when a black suit game is cold, or in having opener pull 3N only to end up one trick too high.

Since games are more common than slams, and minimums far more common than maximums, I just don’t see 4S as forcing as being very sound.

We don't normally open 1♠ with 5-6, but with 5 good spades and 6 bad clubs, we might just treat it as 5-5 where we would open 1♠.

Also it's swings and roundabouts, how comfortable are you bidding spades at the 3 or 4 level after LHO overcalls in hearts and RHO bounces to the 3 or 4 level ?

Partner's actual hand was AKQxx, void, xxx, AQxxx and the slam was making with as expected the K♦ with the overcaller, and spades 3-2. It would have been even better had opener had a heart, as now any non diamond lead you don't need the diamond finesse.

Partner bid 4N, I bid 5♣ as a blackwood response and partner passed. It being teams, it was just possible RHO had all 5 spades so I safety played them and made 5, but would have made 6 had I been in it.

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-23, 03:05, said:

Partner's actual hand was AKQxx, void, xxx, AQxxx

A "not especially good" or a "really good" hand?

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2020-February-23, 03:49, said:

A "not especially good" or a "really good" hand?

It's at the top end of 2 goods suits but not an especially good hand the way we play.

It's the difference between 1♣-1red-2♠ which is this sort and a 5-5 18-19 which we'd bid 1♣-1red-1♠(forcing opposite a real response)-1N-2♠ (a hand that wants to GF once partner responds bids differently and starts with 1♠)

[hrothgar]

mikeh, on 2020-February-23, 01:23, said:

Steve Robinson does. I don’t know any other really good players who do. Now, of course a lot of really good players play a forcing club method so they don’t count. Do you know of any others?

Iwas largely thinking of Washington Standard, strong club, and Polish Club type methods.