[phoenixmj]

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[phoenixmj]

Had this hand this afternoon. I have been doing some reading on when you should open 1NT rather than a suit. I am curious as to how you would have opened this hand and why you make that choice. I will later post my actual bid and reasoning based on my reading to date - and would very much like comments regarding the validity of my thought process. Thanks in advance.

[smerriman]

I open 1NT because if I open 1♥, partner will almost always respond 1♠, and then I don't have a bid.

[mikeh]

I think even players who dislike opening 1N with a 5 card major would open 1N with this hand.

The rebid problems that flow from 1H are hideous, and not merely over the worst case response of 1S.

[Tramticket]

In my opinion, if you are going to open this 1♥, you need to be rebidding the hand as a balanced 12-14. Treating the hand as unbalanced will lead to too many problems. This is not a great 15-count - your points are in your short suits, you lack intermediates and that heart suit will be hard to develop without support from partner. But these negative features are not bad enough to downgrade to a 14-count in my judgment and I would open the obvious 1NT.

[AL78]

1NT if playing a strong NT, 1♥ if playing a weak NT.

It is not ideal opening 1NT with a 5 card major, but it is the least worst option in my opinion. The heart suit is not the sort I would like to rebid, and the only other option if partner responds in a suit is to bid a 3 card minor, which is kludgy.

[helene_t]

I don't have a rebid problem but I am not happy with partner taking preference to 2♥. So 1NT it is. Not something I feel strongly about, though. Often it leads to 2♠ in a 5-2 fit when we have a 5-3 fit in hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

K&R gives this hand as 14.35 I would open it a weak no trump or a strong notrump.

[nige1]

Phoenixmj's hand seems a good candidate for a strong 1N opener,
Most weak notrump players would open 1♥, intending to rebid notrump.
But a few short-club players might open 1♣, only revealing the ♥ suit,
in response to partner's Muppet/Puppet Stayman

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[pescetom]

We open all 5332 in range as 1NT, including this one of course.
But even without similar agreements this particular hand looks like a good candidate to open 1NT rather than 1♥.

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-10, 06:06, said:

K&R gives this hand as 14.35

Thanks - I was guessing that this should be valued at somewhat less than a full 15-count.

I would be relaxed treating this as a weak no trump, but I know that I'm swimming against the tide and we live in a world where players upgrade with the smallest excuse, but never downgrade!

[FelicityR]

I would downgrade it every time. Seven small cards 'six or below'. One tenace. Poor five card suit. Aces in shorter suits. Unsupported doubleton king. But then the Kaplan and Rubens evaluator has already evaluated it at 14.35. However...

...the opening bid could be adjusted due to vulnerability and position if playing a strong no-trump. With a passed partner I'm more inclined to open a strong no-trump as it pre-empts the opponents bidding ♠s. But horses for courses, I could see players who feel that a suit opening is better, and others that go for the 1NT opening, playing both a weak or strong no-trump.

[mikeh]

Anytime I see people downgrading hands like these, I remember preparing to play in the Bermuda Bowll in 2000. Reading the convention cards of other players, I was struck by something Meckwell wrote in terms of their general approach: frequent upgrades, rare downgrades

That philosophy served them pretty well over the past 40 years. We don’t pkay our cards as well as they do, but otoh most of the time our opponents don’t defend as well as theirs do.

I will downgrade, say, QJ tight, or a nand loaded with queens and jacks but here we have 5 controls and a 5 card suit. This is not even close to a downgrade imo.

Btw, using the K & R valuation will result in a lot of 15 hip hands being downgraded. I have great respect for both of them, but in my view it is a mistake to use it as much of a guide for downgrading.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2020-February-10, 16:03, said:

Anytime I see people downgrading hands like these, I remember preparing to play in the Bermuda Bowll in 2000. Reading the convention cards of other players, I was struck by something Meckwell wrote in terms of their general approach: frequent upgrades, rare downgrades

That philosophy served them pretty well over the past 40 years. We don’t pkay our cards as well as they do, but otoh most of the time our opponents don’t defend as well as theirs do.

I will downgrade, say, QJ tight, or a nand loaded with queens and jacks but here we have 5 controls and a 5 card suit. This is not even close to a downgrade imo.

Btw, using the K & R valuation will result in a lot of 15 hip hands being downgraded. I have great respect for both of them, but in my view it is a mistake to use it as much of a guide for downgrading.

I'm uncomfortable with the options playing Acol with a weak NT if partner responds 2m to 1♥, either I have to bid 2♥ which is NF and can be a horrible spot, otherwise I risk bidding a GF 2N which will bid a lot of poor games. I think I need partner to have 11 most of the time for 3N to make, and I can bid 3♥ to show my 5 card suit and a maximum in a lot of the invitational auctions.

And yes it's VERY rare for me to downgrade.

[msjennifer]

Sir,this one is a typical holding which one can use when teaching 5 card major opening to new students in order to learn the differences opening 1H/S and a 15/17 or for that 13/15 weak type 1NT.
1 This hand has 15 fully BALANCED HCP.
2 .The Kx and AQx need to be protected from a lead through.
3 If one opens this hand 1NT then responder knows the hand strength to be exactly 15/17.If he has one or more 4+ card suits ,one or both 4+ cards major then he is sure make a Stayman or Puppet Stayman bid and so your heart suit is not going to get suppressed.'(or Garbage Stayman for that matter)



4 This hand has NO second 4 card suit which may prove useful in a H contract but not necessarily in a NT contact.
5. An 1NT opening certainly takes away the 1S overcall from the opponents,
6 An 1H opening surely will convey the 5 card suit but the HCP may vary any where between 10-21 ((see the Rule of 20).Qxxxx is not a quality suit where one would like to play in a 4H game (or for that matter in a heart slam ) where one has to make one trick more than a 3NT game with such a BALANCED hand.As opposed to that a 5card suit in responders hand can be established ,if necessary.in a trump contract.As also 1NT takes away an one NT natural or artificial overcall from opponents.((as it does to a 2H or 2NT overcall)
7 the responder MAY easily pass on a flat balanced 5/7 worthless HCP when one opens 1NT but which he can not if the opening is 1 Heart.
ALL IN ALL, I,personally , shall always open this hand 1NT and not 1H.
Playing Precision. I HAVE to open this hand 1 Heart (11/15 ,5+Hearts)as one may not conceal a 5 card major suit.Although the hand fits in the 13/15 NT range ,it takes away the valuable Forcing 1NT bid from the responder.
8 One of course can artificially construct responding hands,(but that is not the issue here) wherein either opening may prove correct.

[msjennifer]

FelicityR, on 2020-February-10, 10:08, said:

I would downgrade it every time. Seven small cards 'six or below'. One tenace. Poor five card suit. Aces in shorter suits. Unsupported doubleton king. But then the Kaplan and Rubens evaluator has already evaluated it at 14.35. However...

...the opening bid could be adjusted due to vulnerability and position if playing a strong no-trump. With a passed partner I'm more inclined to open a strong no-trump as it pre-empts the opponents bidding ♠s. But horses for courses, I could see players who feel that a suit opening is better, and others that go for the 1NT opening, playing both a weak or strong no-trump.

Madam ,YES.why K and R ,even Culbertson et. al would say "the hand does not have three and a half honor tricks as are necessary for a 1NT opening".Personally ,going by my experience I do not believe in following and quoting either KR or Culbertson,.

[msjennifer]

mikeh, on 2020-February-10, 16:03, said:

Anytime I see people downgrading hands like these, I remember preparing to play in the Bermuda Bowll in 2000. Reading the convention cards of other players, I was struck by something Meckwell wrote in terms of their general approach: frequent upgrades, rare downgrades

That philosophy served them pretty well over the past 40 years. We don’t pkay our cards as well as they do, but otoh most of the time our opponents don’t defend as well as theirs do.

I will downgrade, say, QJ tight, or a nand loaded with queens and jacks but here we have 5 controls and a 5 card suit. This is not even close to a downgrade imo.

Btw, using the K & R valuation will result in a lot of 15 hip hands being downgraded. I have great respect for both of them, but in my view it is a mistake to use it as much of a guide for downgrading.

Sir.I,personally,very much appreciate your candid reply.Thanks.

[rhm]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-10, 06:06, said:

K&R gives this hand as 14.35 I would open it a weak no trump or a strong notrump.

Tramticket, on 2020-February-10, 07:05, said:

Thanks - I was guessing that this should be valued at somewhat less than a full 15-count.

I would be relaxed treating this as a weak no trump, but I know that I'm swimming against the tide and we live in a world where players upgrade with the smallest excuse, but never downgrade!

A misconception.
K&R is not the holy grail of hand evaluation.
The method does reasonably well evaluating hands ending in trump contracts (subject to finding a reasonable fit of course).
It does not so well for hands ending at notrumps.

With regard to the actual hand K&R only proves that the hand is more suitable for notrumps than for a suit contracts, where it's worth is less.
So opening a strong notrump (15-17) is quite sensible, opening a weak notrump (12-14) much less.

Rainer Herrmann

[nudnikbp]

Automatic 1NT. Usually auctions that begin with 1NT end well.

[Cyberyeti]

rhm, on 2020-February-11, 04:48, said:

A misconception.
K&R is not the holy grail of hand evaluation.
The method does reasonably well evaluating hands ending in trump contracts (subject to finding a reasonable fit of course).
It does not so well for hands ending at notrumps.

With regard to the actual hand K&R only proves that the hand is more suitable for notrumps than for a suit contracts, where it's worth is less.
So opening a strong notrump (15-17) is quite sensible, opening a weak notrump (12-14) much less.

Rainer Herrmann

Utterly disagree, my thought when seeing the hand was "this is more like a 14 count than a 15 count" and K&R merely confirmed this, the intermediates are way below average.

I'd like to see a simulation opposite a wide selection of balanced and semi balanced 10 counts (that aren't obvious upgrades or downgrades) as to whether you want to be in game single dummy.

What do you propose to rebid over 1♥-2♣ ? (in a weak NT Acol style context)