[Cyberyeti]

This 13 off the top hand defeated the room in the teams event I played yesterday, we were flat in 6N, dealer S, I'm primarily interested in non relay stuff

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[pescetom]

For us this can go many ways, but all lead to 6NT I think. North will not know about J♠ and South will not know about the 6th club.

[apollo1201]

Stopping at 6NT as well.

All ways start 1C-2C (inverted). Parts diverge if opener rebids 3NT (18-19 bal w/ 3 C) faking the D stopper, or 2H (stopper) then adds another round of steam later to show 18-19, but all end up in 6NT.

Responder will take charge and learn about the 4 KC’s opposite, for 15 HCP, and 11 tricks. Then it is not unreasonable to hope the 3-4 remaining points will yield another trick. You might chose 6C if you have space to discover those HCPs are Q and J’s.

[mikeh]

Absent a good relay method, I can’t see how north can distinguish between this south hand and, say, AJxx Axx Qxx AKx and now even 6N isn’t cold. So I wouldn’t be the least bit worried about missing grand in my partnerships. If the opps bid it, well they are either better than we are or much worse😊

[awm]

Maybe something like:

1♣ - 2♣ (natural - inverted minors)
2NT - 3♣ (18-19 balanced - six clubs, no shortness; with shortness would show it now via 3♦/3♥/3♠, with a flat hand would bid notrump at appropriate level)
3♥ - 3♠ (heart ace or king but no diamond ace or king - spade ace or king and diamond ace or king)
4♦ - 4♥ (kickback 1430 keycard for clubs - one keycard for clubs)
4♠ - 5♥ (ask club queen - club queen and heart king, no diamond king)
7NT - Pass (all relevant cards of the north hand are known)

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2020-February-01, 15:25, said:

Maybe something like:

1♣ - 2♣ (natural - inverted minors)
2NT - 3♣ (18-19 balanced - six clubs, no shortness; with shortness would show it now via 3♦/3♥/3♠, with a flat hand would bid notrump at appropriate level)
3♥ - 3♠ (heart ace or king but no diamond ace or king - spade ace or king and diamond ace or king)
4♦ - 4♥ (kickback 1430 keycard for clubs - one keycard for clubs)
4♠ - 5♥ (ask club queen - club queen and heart king, no diamond king)
7NT - Pass (all relevant cards of the north hand are known)

If you can ascertain the 6th club then yes it's easy, but if this is your system, how do you tell between 4 and 5 ?

[awm]

Usually inverted minors show five. The main exception for us is 3334 and game invitational but this hand has no slam interest opposite a balanced opener anyway. 33(43) and GF bids 2nt (forcing) or 3nt (15-17) normally.

[ahydra]

As N I would make inv minor raise, then look to ask about keycards, kings and queens. After 1C-1N (GF clubs); 2N (15-19 bal)-3C, 3H is a nasty surprise showing we are off KD. Then 3S;
4C-4N
5C-5H (4; SSA)
5S (no help in H but got stuff in S and a good hand for grand) - 6S (last train - we have 12, just need a little more)
7NT (surely partner has SK so my SJ is the 13th).

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

awm, on 2020-February-02, 05:44, said:

Usually inverted minors show five. The main exception for us is 3334 and game invitational but this hand has no slam interest opposite a balanced opener anyway. 33(43) and GF bids 2nt (forcing) or 3nt (15-17) normally.

OK, we play a 4 card club opener so don't have this showing 6 as inverted minors are usually bid on 4.

[mikestar13]

Our precision auction:
1♣ -2♣ (16+ AF; positive, 6+ clubs or 4=5 minors, no 4 card major)
2NT - 4♣ (balanced; 6+ clubs substantial extras)
4♦ - 4♠ (Key Card; one key)
4NT - 5♥ (queen ask; yes and ♥K)
5♠ - 7♣ (♠K ask, grand slam try; got it , nothing else to show.)
7NT

[nullve]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-February-01, 05:12, said:

I'm primarily interested in non relay stuff

Relay stuff, unfortunately:

Spoiler

nullve-nullve:

1♣(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-2♥(4)
2♠(5)-2N(6)
3♣(7)-3♦(8)
3♥(9)-3♠(10)
3N(11)-4♣(12)
4♦(13)-5♣(14)
5♦(15)-5♠(16)
5N(17)-6♦(18)
7N(19)-P

(1) "10+, NAT(ish)" OR 11-13/17-19/26+ BAL
(2) "unBAL GF w/ 5+ C"
(3) relay
(4) "13-15"
(5) relay
(6) "4+ H or 1-suited"
(7) relay
(8) 1-suited
(9) relay, slam interest
(10) 1- S or (32)26
(11) relay(!)
(12) (32)26
(13) Key card ask w/ C agreed
(14) odd # of key cards + trump Q, 3236 [the responses to 4♦ were: 4♥ = even # of key cards; 4♠ = odd # of key cards, no trump Q; 4N = odd # of key cards, trump Q, 2326; 5♣ = odd # of key cards, trump Q, 3226]
(15) ♠K ask
(16) ♠K, no ♦K
(17) ♥K ask
(18) ♥K, no ♠Q
(19) contract

If N were dealer:

1♣(1')-1♠(2')
2♣(3')-2♠(4')

(1') same as (1) above
(2') "0-6, no major" OR "unBAL GF w/ 5+ D" OR "13+, either 4M333 or BAL w/o a major"
(3') unBAL w/ "13-15"
(4') GF relay

and the rest of the auction would be identical to after 1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♥; 2♠ above.

[Cyberyeti]

nullve, on 2020-February-02, 08:24, said:

Relay stuff, unfortunately:

Spoiler

nullve-nullve:

1♣(1)-2♣(2)
2♦(3)-2♥(4)
2♠(5)-2N(6)
3♣(7)-3♦(8)
3♥(9)-3♠(10)
3N(11)-4♣(12)
4♦(13)-5♣(14)
5♦(15)-5♠(16)
5N(17)-6♦(18)
7N(19)-P

(1) "10+, NAT(ish)" OR 11-13/17-19/26+ BAL
(2) "unBAL GF w/ 5+ C"
(3) relay
(4) "13-15"
(5) relay
(6) "4+ H or 1-suited"
(7) relay
(8) 1-suited
(9) relay, slam interest
(10) 1- S or (32)26
(11) relay(!)
(12) (32)26
(13) Key card ask w/ C agreed
(14) odd # of key cards + trump Q, 3236 [the responses to 4♦ were: 4♥ = even # of key cards; 4♠ = odd # of key cards, no trump Q; 4N = odd # of key cards, trump Q, 2326; 5♣ = odd # of key cards, trump Q, 3226]
(15) ♠K ask
(16) ♠K, no ♦K
(17) ♥K ask
(18) ♥K, no ♠Q
(19) contract

If N were dealer:

1♣(1')-1♠(2')
2♣(3')-2♠(4')

(1') same as (1) above
(2') "0-6, no major" OR "unBAL GF w/ 5+ D" OR "13+, either 4M333 or BAL w/o a major"
(3') unBAL w/ "13-15"
(4') GF relay

and the rest of the auction would be identical to after 1♣-2♣; 2♦-2♥; 2♠ above.

With N as dealer we probably bid a grand, we will discover the 4-3 spade fit and work out that because of the lack of a weak 1N opener or showing a singleton that N must be 3226. 3235 of course is a decent grand but has to be played in 7♠ which you might do in a relay sequence.

[pescetom]

Such problems prompt us to examine our own agreements critically and sometimes refine them. We would probably start to bid this as 1♣ - 2♣; 2♠ - ... where 1♣ is semi-artificial 2+cards and 2♣ may be artificial - so it's a game forcing situation where neither player has promised clubs yet. At this point a rebid of clubs by responder confirms a real 5+card suit. But thinking about it, 4♣ pretty much has to be 6+card and might as well promise that, in which case South (who knows about the spades situation) would be able to call the grand later. Whether North would really take that route with this hand is debatable, however.

[KingCovert]

The best auctions that my partner and I could come up with... (with a lot of partner's help...):

1♣: 15+
1♦: Game-Forcing
2N: 18-20 Balanced. No 5-card Suit.
3♠: Minor Suit Stayman

And it diverges here... Either,

4♣: Club Preference
4N: 1430
5♣: 4 Keycards
5N: King Ask
6♣: No kings.
6♥: Try for Grand. K♥. 6NT is signoff.
6♠: I have extra tricks here, you know I have no kings.
7♣: To play.

Or:

3N: No Preference
4♣: Slam Try in ♣
4♠: A♠.
5♠: K♠, K♥ (implied by no cue-bidding 5♥).
7♣: To play.

In this sequence, if partner didn't have the K♥, they'd bid 5♣. The auction would continue: 5♥-5♠-7♣.

Theoretically anyways..... It took discussion, but, I learnt a lot from it. I feel like if partner played with himself, he'd find the grand. I don't think I'd find the imaginative cue-bids in this line.