[bilalz]

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Pairs at the local club, MPs, 3S raise is natural (i.e. no difference after interference). The system we play is 4 card, 12+hcps openings (Nordic standard). Opps are vulnerable. I am sitting east.
5S went one down. P said that I can not bid 4S holding all those hcps in hearts. I think the jack of hearts is the only bad hcp I have and I think that 4H could possibly be passed out and even doubled might not be a good score. And from what I have gathered so far, the hand that bids the invitational hand should then not bid 5S and let the opener decide.

Questions:

1. Is the 4S an overbid (singleton and an extra trump as we play 4 card majors, and obvious shortness from P in hearts are plus points, 5 hcps in opps suit is the negative point)?
2. Is the 5S bid usual/allowed?

[MrAce]

bilalz, on 2018-June-08, 18:07, said:

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Pairs at the local club, MPs, 3S raise is natural (i.e. no difference after interference). The system we play is 4 card, 12+hcps openings (Nordic standard). Opps are vulnerable. I am sitting east.
5S went one down. P said that I can not bid 4S holding all those hcps in hearts. I think the jack of hearts is the only bad hcp I have and I think that 4H could possibly be passed out and even doubled might not be a good score. And from what I have gathered so far, the hand that bids the invitational hand should then not bid 5S and let the opener decide.

Questions:

1. Is the 4S an overbid (singleton and an extra trump as we play 4 card majors, and obvious shortness from P in hearts are plus points, 5 hcps in opps suit is the negative point)?
2. Is the 5S bid usual/allowed?

1-No
2-I can't say without seeing his hand whether 5♠ was a reasonable call or not. But even if 5♠ is reasonable than probably 3♠ was not reasonable. They can't be both right bids in this auction, whatever 3♠ meant.

[ahydra]

Would be good to see the full hand, but the general consensus is that "the 5-level belongs to the opponents" - i.e. it's normally not a good idea to bid 5 over 5.

Honestly, 4S is fine as you expect to make it (you can predict a singleton heart in partner's hand), you would love to double 5H no doubt but partner took that decision from you. Maybe discuss whether pass is forcing here.

ahydra

[Tramticket]

ahydra, on 2018-June-09, 01:33, said:

Maybe discuss whether pass is forcing here.

Pass would not be forcing here for most I suspect - West doesn't know whether East has bid 4S to make or as a save against 4H or with both in mind.

West needs a lot of shape to consider bidding 5 over 5 and with additional shape he should probably have bid 4S rather than 3S initially. As Mr Ace points out, the two bids are inconsistent.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2018-June-09, 03:03, said:

Pass would not be forcing here for most I suspect - West doesn't know whether East has bid 4S to make or as a save against 4H or with both in mind.

West needs a lot of shape to consider bidding 5 over 5 and with additional shape he should probably have bid 4S rather than 3S initially. As Mr Ace points out, the two bids are inconsistent.

By the rules I use pass should be forcing, it would be very different if partner's 3♠ was preemptive, but we've advertised balance of points, it's unlikely to be right to defend 5♥ undoubled.

I'd like to see partner's hand before making judgment, but I have little issue with your bidding.

[FelicityR]

As other commentators have said, partner can't bid 3♠ then 5♠. But the most important thing about the hand is the vulnerability - it's in your favour. Rarely will a vulnerable opponent sacrifice against a non-vulnerable one. As MrAce said your 4♠ bid is not incorrect, with your shape, controls and extra ♠. Partner has no idea of your holding, whereas you have some idea of his. As soon as it gets to the five level he should either double himself or let you double: bidding on is bizarre.

[bilalz]

Thanks for the comments so far and please keep them coming, and answer the bonus question too if you will

I did not want to post the full hand at the start because I did not want the discussion to get side-tracked on to the 3s bid. First I wanted to know if the 4S bid was correct and if 3S and then 5S is as odd as I thought.
For me it is a direct jump to 4S from West's hand, but there are different styles about what a preempt here would be (4 to 9 hcps and 5 card support with a singleton is the usual rule, but here we have a void and a 6 carder and only 4 card support opposite what might be a 4 card opening...).

P said later that he would not pass if I passed 4H (something which was news to me, but the partnership is in its nascent stages), and personally I would not like to play forcing pass here anyways, apologies Cyber (maybe you can still say if a forcing pass system even would allow the 3S bidder to take it to 5S by himself or would that choice still rest with the opener as I feel it should be). I prefer to bid what you have and keep it simple if there is no obvious advantage.

Bonus Question: 3S or 4S?

Here is the full hand:

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[Cyberyeti]

bilalz, on 2018-June-09, 07:53, said:

Thanks for the comments so far and please keep them coming, and answer the bonus question too if you will

I did not want to post the full hand at the start because I did not want the discussion to get side-tracked on to the 3s bid. First I wanted to know if the 4S bid was correct and if 3S and then 5S is as odd as I thought.
For me it is a direct jump to 4S from West's hand, but there are different styles about what a preempt here would be (4 to 9 hcps and 5 card support with a singleton is the usual rule, but here we have a void and a 6 carder and only 4 card support opposite what might be a 4 card opening...).

P said later that he would not pass if I passed 4H (something which was news to me, but the partnership is in its nascent stages), and personally I would not like to play forcing pass here anyways, apologies Cyber (maybe you can still say if a forcing pass system even would allow the 3S bidder to take it to 5S by himself or would that choice still rest with the opener as I feel it should be). I prefer to bid what you have and keep it simple if there is no obvious advantage.

Bonus Question: 3S or 4S?

Here is the full hand:

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I wasn't saying your pass over 4♥ was forcing, but partner's pass over 5 would be.

I would have bid 4♠ (or 4♣ fit if I had it available) immediately rather than 3♠, and now pass by partner over 5♥ would not be forcing as he wouldn't have shown the same level of values. What you didn't say about your system is what hands partner can have where he opens 1♠ on 4, ie provided a weak NT is impossible I'm happy bidding at the 4 level with the W hand.

[eagles123]

bilalz, on 2018-June-09, 07:53, said:

Thanks for the comments so far and please keep them coming, and answer the bonus question too if you will

I did not want to post the full hand at the start because I did not want the discussion to get side-tracked on to the 3s bid. First I wanted to know if the 4S bid was correct and if 3S and then 5S is as odd as I thought.
For me it is a direct jump to 4S from West's hand, but there are different styles about what a preempt here would be (4 to 9 hcps and 5 card support with a singleton is the usual rule, but here we have a void and a 6 carder and only 4 card support opposite what might be a 4 card opening...).

P said later that he would not pass if I passed 4H (something which was news to me, but the partnership is in its nascent stages), and personally I would not like to play forcing pass here anyways, apologies Cyber (maybe you can still say if a forcing pass system even would allow the 3S bidder to take it to 5S by himself or would that choice still rest with the opener as I feel it should be). I prefer to bid what you have and keep it simple if there is no obvious advantage.

Bonus Question: 3S or 4S?

Here is the full hand:

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3s is a terrible bid, punting slam would be more logical. But having bid 3s, partner has no right to bid 5, it's like the classic bad player auction

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just a complete no no

[ggwhiz]

I agree with pretty much all of the above and have a partnership rule in all competitive auctions of this type. If you are not absolutely sure (1% of the time) the decision belongs to pass out seat (99%).

With crummy spades and a heart void showing the worst possible trump split for n/s, the 5♠ bid is as bad as it could possibly be.

4♠ to the bonus question but curiously if the major suit fits were reversed I tend to bid 5♥ considering 4♥ to be a transfer to 4♠ and a waste of time and pressure.

[Tramticket]

bilalz, on 2018-June-09, 07:53, said:

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As West, I would have raised to 4S immediately (especially in a competitive auction) and then left it to partner.

Edited - see below.

[pescetom]

Tramticket, on 2018-June-09, 09:19, said:

As West, I would have raised to 4H immediately (especially in a competitive auction) and then left it to partner.

Not sure I follow you here: how should East interpret that bid and what can he do but bid 4♠?

[Tramticket]

pescetom, on 2018-June-10, 09:21, said:

Not sure I follow you here: how should East interpret that bid and what can he do but bid 4♠?

Yep, I meant to type 4S. Sorry for confusion.

[rmnka447]

4 ♠ is entirely normal by East. You can see that the hand will make a lot of tricks because partner is short in ♥.

I'd be more apt to bid either 2 ♠ or 4 ♠ with the West hand. One now gone expert I knew suggested that it was right to bid 4 holding 10+ cards in 2 suits with at least 4 trumps. But that was in the context of 5 card major openers. I'm not sure how well that translates into in 4 card major opening environment.

I really think the problem lies with the 3 ♠ bid. Yeah, if you fully count distributional values, you get to an invitational hand. The problem is, that with the ♥ void, it's highly likely the opponents will compete further and partner may attribute more values to West's hand.

Let's say in this auction West passes over 5 ♥ and East doubles. Now West is in a quandary because it unknown whether East is doubling expecting more from West or not. So here a bid that shows a little less may be preferable because it eliminates that quandary. If, say, West bids 4 ♠ initially and they compete to 5 ♥, whatever East does over 5 ♥ will be fine because west's hand has been limited.

[JanisW]

I think the real issue is that you play 3♠ as invitational disregarding interference.
In a contested auction it is paramount to avoid the last guess. This is best achieved by describing your hand most accurately in one go and with that making partner boss.
Therefore, it is important not to disregard interference. West had the feeling (and rightly so) that 3♠ has not told a true story, because in your system he would’ve also bid 3♠ on Kxxx, x, KJxx, Qxxx or something similar.
I would suggest, that you use Fit-jumps, the 3♥-bid, 2NT to distinguish between different hands. If fit-jumps and 2NT are available 3♠ will tell a much better story. It becomes an offensive raise to the 3lvl without the necessary defensive-strength (=2NT) and without concentrated values in either minor (=fit-jump). For example: If the ♦Q were the ♣Q West would’ve bid 4♣ fit jump.
As his hand is much better defined, he will not feel the need to bid again. On the actual deal West promised invitational values and with that some defense, which he has almost none of.
He probably should’ve have either gone the low or the high route. Having slightly underbid with 2♠, West has an easier pass when 5♥ comes back to him, because he did not promise any defense. Having slightly overbid with 4♠ he has a better chance of playing 4♠ and told a better story if 5♥ comes back.