[hmw]

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IMP pairs, playing a natural 5-card major system, including cue bids and RKC-1430.

Two questions:

1) What do you bid as East, and why?

2) East bids 4♣ - what do you bid as West?

[yunling]

I'll not bid 3♠ with the west hand and I think very few people will.
1♠-2♣-2♠-3♣-3♠-4♠ for me.

Maybe you need a detailed discussion on what 3S shows.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

my guess is, that 2C was not gf, may not even promising a 2nd bid, i.e. Acol style.
In this context 3S is the only bid, setting up a gf, but it is a slight overbid.

#1 I try to show the fit, and this would be done via 4D, a cue, west bids 4H, and
East will bid 4S.

#2 4C sets trumps, the Ace is nice, hence I bid 4H, a cue.
Having only 1 KC, 4NT is not an option, hence East will go with 4S, a
Cue, ... showing a top honor, West may use RKCB and you will end up in 5C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[The_Badger]

3♠ by West is a gross overbid, in my opinion. I would see it as a solid trump suit in a 2/1 or Sayc-based system (setting the trump suit), and let's start cuebidding from there on. A solid trump suit would be no less than AKQJxx or KQJ109xx or similar, NOT AQJxxx

So to answer question #1, I would be totally confused what to bid as East as patently West hasn't got a solid trump suit. 4♠ would be the most sensible answer as you have described your hand with 2♣ and have now found a 8+ trump fit in ♠.

The answer to question #2 is if West sees 2♣ as a GF, and now sees East's 4♣ as natural in this sequence, then a raise to 5♣ is obligatory, in my opinion.

[hmw]

Thanks for your input. I forgot to mention that the system is not 2/1, so east's 2♣ promised 10+ and a Club suit. I have realised, in retrospect, that 3♠ was an overbid. It should show a good 6-card suit and 16-21, but we don't have quite the same requirement to suit quality as The Badger would expect.

I agree that if East has slam interest, he should cue bid 4♦ and the final contract will be 4♠ (which makes). East thought however that 4♣ was a cue bid, but West took it to be natural and raised to 5♣ (which goes 1 off).

I now hope we will have a fruitful discussion when we meet again next week!

[The_Badger]

hmw, on 2017-September-30, 13:40, said:

Thanks for your input. I forgot to mention that the system is not 2/1, so east's 2♣ promised 10+ and a Club suit. I have realised, in retrospect, that 3♠ was an overbid. It should show a good 6-card suit and 16-21, but we don't have quite the same requirement to suit quality as The Badger would expect.

Yes, in 2/1, most players play a jump rebid in a major over a 2 level bid as solid, whereas in SAYC and Acol it is played, as you say, as good a 6 card suit with 16-21.

[P_Marlowe]

hmw, on 2017-September-30, 13:40, said:

<snip>
I agree that if East has slam interest, he should cue bid 4♦ and the final contract will be 4♠ (which makes). East thought however that 4♣ was a cue bid, but West took it to be natural and raised to 5♣ (which goes 1 off).
<snip>

Given that 3S is 16-21, East should make a move toward slam, but should not go above 4S.
Similar, when West takes 4C as natural, he should also make a move, he has Aces, and 4C
is forcing.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[PhilG007]

P_Marlowe, on 2017-September-30, 11:59, said:

Hi,

my guess is, that 2C was not gf, may not even promising a 2nd bid, i.e. Acol style.
In this context 3S is the only bid, setting up a gf, but it is a slight overbid.

#1 I try to show the fit, and this would be done via 4D, a cue, west bids 4H, and
East will bid 4S.

#2 4C sets trumps, the Ace is nice, hence I bid 4H, a cue.
Having only 1 KC, 4NT is not an option, hence East will go with 4S, a
Cue, ... showing a top honor, West may use RKCB and you will end up in 5C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If you're playing SAYC then 2C is definitely forcing (2 over 1)

[PhilG007]

hmw, on 2017-September-30, 09:06, said:

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IMP pairs, playing a natural 5-card major system, including cue bids and RKC-1430.

Two questions:

1) What do you bid as East, and why?

2) East bids 4♣ - what do you bid as West?

The answer to both questions is PASS In both instances the hand is a total misfit. I always get jittery when partner
bids my short suit. I've learned through bitter experience that misfits should be played at as low a level as possible.
When the bidding shows that a 'tug o war' is developing,one partner has to give way and the sooner this
happens,the better.

[Winstonm]

hmw, on 2017-September-30, 09:06, said:

---

IMP pairs, playing a natural 5-card major system, including cue bids and RKC-1430.

Two questions:

1) What do you bid as East, and why?

2) East bids 4♣ - what do you bid as West?

1) 4S
2) 5C - the odds are good enough for a vulnerable game at imps. Somewhere around 40% I would guess without doing the math.

Comment on the bidding: I think the problem with this hand is the 3S rebid - not a good enough hand IMO, especially with the stiff in partner's supposed suit.

[fourdad]

With my regular partners, we avoid wide point spreads as defining second bids. Hence we do not play 3S as 16-21, rather 16-18. A rebid must also revalue to not just HCP, but distributional AND length points as well.

I have no problem valuing the hand as 16 points and the 3S bid would define a 6 card holding.

Does this not make East's bid of 4S pretty easy?

[neilkaz]

yunling, on 2017-September-30, 10:27, said:

I'll not bid 3♠ with the west hand and I think very few people will.
1♠-2♣-2♠-3♣-3♠-4♠ for me.

Maybe you need a detailed discussion on what 3S shows.

This would be my sequence as well. But if west can bid 3♠ with that, then east must not confuse the issue with a 4♣ rebid.

[SelfGovern]

The_Badger, on 2017-September-30, 12:51, said:

3♠ by West is a gross overbid, in my opinion. I would see it as a solid trump suit in a 2/1 or Sayc-based system (setting the trump suit), and let's start cuebidding from there on. A solid trump suit would be no less than AKQJxx or KQJ109xx or similar, NOT AQJxxx

So to answer question #1, I would be totally confused what to bid as East as patently West hasn't got a solid trump suit. 4♠ would be the most sensible answer as you have described your hand with 2♣ and have now found a 8+ trump fit in ♠.

The answer to question #2 is if West sees 2♣ as a GF, and now sees East's 4♣ as natural in this sequence, then a raise to 5♣ is obligatory, in my opinion.

How can it be called a solid suit when there's a guaranteed loser (i.e., KQJT9xx)?
This strikes me as a perversion of the language, at the very least.

[helene_t]

Hi hmw,

It's always good to explain a bit more about your methods when asking such a question. I know it's a bit difficult to know what the readers of this forum can and can't assume is implied by "natural 5-card majors". Here, it would help to know if the 3♠ rebid establishes spades as a trump suit and also if 4♦ by East would be
1) Natural
2) Control bid agreeing spades, showing extras
3) Control bid agreeing spades, not showing extras

If 1) or 2) I would just bid 4♠. If 3) I suppose I have to bid 4♦ as presumably 4♠ would deny a red suit control, but even that is debatable since a king in the dummy is not always a safe control.

You may wonder if 4♦ would deny a club control. I don't think it does. I think that cuebidding your own suit should show the ace unless you have already shown that you are very weak and could plausibly hold zero kings.

So the short answer: probably 4♠.

[The_Badger]

SelfGovern, on 2017-October-01, 15:47, said:

How can it be called a solid suit when there's a guaranteed loser (i.e., KQJT9xx)?
This strikes me as a perversion of the language, at the very least.

It doesn't need an ace for it to be a solid suit, and as far as I am aware 2/1 does allow jump rebids of suits without the ace. However, I do see where you are coming from as there might be an issue when RKCB is involved later.

[smerriman]

The_Badger, on 2017-October-01, 19:09, said:

It doesn't need an ace for it to be a solid suit.

The standard definition of solid means no losers opposite a void. Missing one honor would be semi-solid.

[dokoko]

If 1♠-2♣-2♠ is nonforcing, then there is'nt much to do. You should bid 1♠-2♣-3♠-4♠ and miss an easy 6♣ or 6♠ on a slightly different layout. And you should change your system.

Otherwise, i.e. the sequence is forcing, 3♠ shows a better hand with a better suit (standard is not more than 1 loser opposite a void - setting trump).

Whatever you play, consuming one and a half levels of bidding with moderate extras without a clear definition of your hand is asking for trouble.

[moysian88]

I see no problem with the 3spade bid...shows 6 losers and a 6 card suit. However, East should now raise to 4spades. Nothing extra in the East hand; East should pass 4spd. West will pass primarily because he doesn't have any more than what showed on his second bid, and secondly, his partner bid his singleton and thus probably has some wasted values.