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Slam despite misfit?

Poll: Slam despite misfit? (30 member(s) have cast votes)

What's your call?

  1. Pass (24 votes [80.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 80.00%

  2. 4c minorwood (1 votes [3.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  3. 4d minorwood (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 4H ? (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 4S (1 votes [3.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  6. 4N quanti (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  7. 5c (1 votes [3.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  8. 5S ? (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  9. 6c (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  10. other (1 votes [3.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 3.33%

  11. abstain, earlier choices and/or methods are horrible (2 votes [6.67%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.67%

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#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 03:44

AKxxx-xx-void-KQJTxx

Partner opens first seat r/r MP, uncontested. 1 is SA style, basically (with a 6322 shape and 15-17 she might have opened 1NT, up/downgrades are infrequent).

1-2* (*natural GF, not MAFIA)
2**-2*** (** tends to be a 6-card suit. ***3 would be splinter)
3-3
3NT-?
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#2 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 10:01

I voted 5 because

* I expect it to be easier to make 11 tricks in 5 than 9 tricks in 3N;
* I doubt we can bid 6 with any confidence on the rare occasions when it's right. (Well, maybe partner will be able to raise 5 to 6.)
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#3 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 10:05

Easy pass for me. It's MP and we're in 3NT.
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#4 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 11:03

we've shown a 6-5 GF and partners opted for 3N - who are we to overrule?
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 13:15

View Posteagles123, on 2017-March-02, 11:03, said:

we've shown a 6-5 GF and partners opted for 3N - who are we to overrule?


We haven't shown a hand where the club suit works as trumps opposite a singleton.

Your hand might be waste paper in 3N if partner has a stiff spade and they lead one. You might also fail if they lead a heart taking out partner's stop and cash a bundle of them when in with A. This is a suit play hand at this stage, why is 4 minorwood ? should be natural and would be what I bid here.
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#6 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 14:05

And we could be off AK and A in 5 with 3N making comfortably.
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#7 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 14:25

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-March-02, 13:15, said:

We haven't shown a hand where the club suit works as trumps opposite a singleton.

Your hand might be waste paper in 3N if partner has a stiff spade and they lead one. You might also fail if they lead a heart taking out partner's stop and cash a bundle of them when in with A. This is a suit play hand at this stage, why is 4 minorwood ? should be natural and would be what I bid here.


when we've shown a 6-5 it's hardly news of the century that our points are in our long suits
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 15:00

Pass.

Have you misrepresented your hand by a GF 2 followed by bidding twice?

Once you've described your hand and partner has made a decision, you have to respect partner's decision. If it's wrong, it's on him/her.

Yeah, your hand might be useless at NT if partner holds a stiff , but you have no reason to believe that's the case. You're a favorite to deliver 7 tricks at NT if partner has a doubleton .

Bidding again is rebidding your values a second time which is rarely right.
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 16:55

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-March-02, 03:44, said:

AKxxx-xx-void-KQJTxx
Partner opens first seat r/r MP, uncontested. 1 is SA style, basically (with a 6322 shape and 15-17 she might have opened 1NT, up/downgrades are infrequent).

1-2* (*natural GF, not MAFIA)
2**-2*** (** tends to be a 6-card suit. ***3 would be splinter)
3-3
3NT-?

Agreeing with majority. I rank
  • Pass = NAT. You've described your hand to partner and he's made a decision. You can justify your pass in the post-mortem even if better contracts are available. 3N is likely to have play. Even with your hand exposed as dummy, 3N might be hard to defend. A typical hand for partner: Q x K Q T A J x x x x x x
  • 4 = NAT. F1. Allows partner to prefer s. Your bidding hasn't promised a 1-loser suit. Even 6 has good chances opposite, say x x A K Q x x x x x x A x
  • 4 = NAT. But a distortion since the bid should show more shape.
  • Other = Weird.

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#10 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-March-02, 16:55

View Posteagles123, on 2017-March-02, 14:25, said:

when we've shown a 6-5 it's hardly news of the century that our points are in our long suits


But there's a big difference between this hand and AKJ10x, xx, void KQxxxx opposite a misfit
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#11 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-March-03, 11:57

Holding a 6206 pattern my first action would be calling the director.

Guess you where holding a 6205 pattern.

If I play a system where you only can show a 6 card from a 6-5 pattern I would play a different system.

If your are stuck with your system accept you will/can miss the best contract.
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#12 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-03, 12:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-March-02, 16:55, said:

But there's a big difference between this hand and AKJ10x, xx, void KQxxxx opposite a misfit

View Postaawk, on 2017-March-03, 11:57, said:

Holding a 6206 pattern my first action would be calling the director.

Guess you where holding a 6205 pattern.

You read the 10 as 1 and 0?
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#13 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-March-03, 14:47

This is an easy one -- pass. You've shown your hand nicely; partner says he wants to play 3NT. WTP?

But I do take exception to the fact that 2D over 2C shows 6+. Maybe that's your bidding style, but it's not a good treatment. Rebidding 2D on almost all hands with 5+ diamonds is more or less standard nowadays and generally works out much better.

Cheers,
mike
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-March-03, 17:19

View Postaawk, on 2017-March-03, 11:57, said:

Holding a 6206 pattern my first action would be calling the director.

Guess you where holding a 6205 pattern.

If I play a system where you only can show a 6 card from a 6-5 pattern I would play a different system.

If your are stuck with your system accept you will/can miss the best contract.


Try actually reading, 5206 AKJTx I just spelt out the 10
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#15 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-March-03, 23:56

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-March-03, 17:19, said:

Try actually reading, 5206 AKJTx I just spelt out the 10



Sorry you are right it was a 5206 pattern.

So if 3s shows a strong 5xx6 pattern to your partner and he bid 3nt I would pass.
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#16 User is offline   mdgraham 

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Posted 2017-March-04, 02:12

Pass. You have shown your shape and partner has made a decision based on that, but he does not know the clubs are semi-solid.

However, is it right to continue? For a slam in clubs to be right partner needs solid values in the reds (Ak, KQJ, etc) rather than slow values (AQ9, KJ10 etc) so that we can dump our low spades. Also, pard does not know our clubs are (for practical purposes) semi-solid, so will incline to 3NT with, say, 9x in clubs.

I would pass reluctantly at the table and would not be surprised to find that 6C is making.
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-March-04, 14:32

View Postmdgraham, on 2017-March-04, 02:12, said:

Pass. You have shown your shape and partner has made a decision based on that, but he does not know the clubs are semi-solid.

However, is it right to continue? For a slam in clubs to be right partner needs solid values in the reds (Ak, KQJ, etc) rather than slow values (AQ9, KJ10 etc) so that we can dump our low spades. Also, pard does not know our clubs are (for practical purposes) semi-solid, so will incline to 3NT with, say, 9x in clubs.

I would pass reluctantly at the table and would not be surprised to find that 6C is making.


I would be more worried 3N wasn't making but 5 was
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#18 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-March-04, 14:33

View Posteagles123, on 2017-March-02, 11:03, said:

we've shown a 6-5 GF and partners opted for 3N - who are we to overrule?

I would certainly overrule 3NT Hands that don't fit in a suit,very often don't
fit in No Trumps either(!)
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#19 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2017-March-04, 15:24

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-March-04, 14:33, said:

I would certainly overrule 3NT Hands that don't fit in a suit,very often don't
fit in No Trumps either(!)
Your partner knows that as well as you. Despite which he suggests 3N. What do you have that he does not know about? Apart from superior judgement, that is.

I reckon that one case for passing is that you haven't (yet) been doubled.

Love the thread title. Here we are worried about which game might have a chance of making.
Psych (pron. saik): A gross and deliberate misstatement of honour strength and/or suit length. Expressly permitted under Law 73E but forbidden contrary to that law by Acol club tourneys.

Psyche (pron. sahy-kee): The human soul, spirit or mind (derived, personification thereof, beloved of Eros, Greek myth).
Masterminding (pron. mPosted ImagesPosted ImagetPosted Imager-mPosted ImagendPosted Imageing) tr. v. - Any bid made by bridge player with which partner disagrees.

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2000 years earlier: "morituri te salutant"

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#20 User is online   nullve 

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Posted 2017-March-05, 04:53

View Posteagles123, on 2017-March-02, 11:03, said:

we've shown a 6-5 GF and partners opted for 3N - who are we to overrule?

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-March-02, 15:00, said:

Once you've described your hand and partner has made a decision, you have to respect partner's decision. If it's wrong, it's on him/her.

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-March-03, 14:47, said:

This is an easy one -- pass. You've shown your hand nicely; partner says he wants to play 3NT. WTP?

View Postaawk, on 2017-March-03, 23:56, said:

So if 3s shows a strong 5xx6 pattern to your partner and he bid 3nt I would pass.

View Post1eyedjack, on 2017-March-04, 15:24, said:

Your partner knows that as well as you. Despite which he suggests 3N. What do you have that he does not know about? Apart from superior judgement, that is.

Maybe 5 is wrong, but there must still be exceptions to the rule

'If you've shown your hand and partner bids 3N, you must pass.'

(Consider childish examples such as a 3 opening showing 37 hcp.)
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