[andrei]

IMPS, both vul

---

what now?

[wank]

double is best when p has spades, but the rest of the time you'll endplay him and miss 3NT. even when you have a spade fit you'll often make 3NT - it is a level lower after all.

[Phil]

3N is obvious. To me anyway. We have exteas, LHO is a PH so we arent getting lit up. We can never find 3N when we x.

[Cyberyeti]

 Phil, on 2017-February-13, 12:00, said:

3N is obvious. To me anyway. We have exteas, LHO is a PH so we arent getting lit up. We can never find 3N when we x.

err no, CHO is a passed hand not LHO, but I'd bid 3N too

[Phil]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-February-13, 12:32, said:

err no, CHO is a passed hand not LHO, but I'd bid 3N too

Yes, sorry.

[eagles123]

meh I am the lone doubler - I totally understand the arguments for 3N but I would double here I'm probably wrong!

[Winstonm]

3N.

[Winstonm]

 eagles123, on 2017-February-13, 15:57, said:

meh I am the lone doubler - I totally understand the arguments for 3N but I would double here I'm probably wrong!

HiYo, Spade Suit, Away!

[stoppiello]

well, lets examine what we do know.

P is a passed hand, our LHO is not. The pre-empt is 2nd seat, red/red, so it should be really good KQJxxxx and an outside card (Kxx or QJxx in another suit which is probably diamonds) given that hypothetical, we have 18hcp, preempter has 9 that leaves 13 to split between p and LHO. We know P is short in hearts (maybe 1 maybe 2) so has length somewhere. About the only plausible hand for partner I want to be in 3N instead of a suit contract is when they have the AD and QJTxx of clubs, and you can't ever expect a perfect hand opposite.

If I double, it is somewhere around 99% getting taken out by partner, and I won't be shocked if we're -200 on a bad trump split in 3S or 4C.

2nd choice is pass, would not even consider 3N

[Cyberyeti]

 stoppiello, on 2017-February-14, 02:25, said:

well, lets examine what we do know.

P is a passed hand, our LHO is not. The pre-empt is 2nd seat, red/red, so it should be really good KQJxxxx and an outside card (Kxx or QJxx in another suit which is probably diamonds) given that hypothetical, we have 18hcp, preempter has 9 that leaves 13 to split between p and LHO. We know P is short in hearts (maybe 1 maybe 2) so has length somewhere. About the only plausible hand for partner I want to be in 3N instead of a suit contract is when they have the AD and QJTxx of clubs, and you can't ever expect a perfect hand opposite.

If I double, it is somewhere around 99% getting taken out by partner, and I won't be shocked if we're -200 on a bad trump split in 3S or 4C.

2nd choice is pass, would not even consider 3N

Well what do you expect partner to do with say Qxxxx, xx, (A/K)x, xxxx (or the same with the blacks reversed which is close to the example you gave), I'd rather be in 3N than 3♠, not sure I'm getting to 4♠.

[fourdad]

 eagles123, on 2017-February-13, 15:57, said:

meh I am the lone doubler - I totally understand the arguments for 3N but I would double here I'm probably wrong!

I am with you. You have sufficient to bid again and strong 4 spades.

[geoffff]

I was the first to pass. Being vulnerable, there are too many ways in which the hand could go wrong: a) No five card suit, b) Know nothing about diamonds c) 7 hearts to right with possible K Q and an outside entry. Going 2 down doubled in 3NT or a black suit is far worse than 'giving them' 3 H (and possibly getting them down).

[aawk]

After 3nt and partner has less than 6(7) HCP and nothing in ♥ 3nt is risky and a possible 4-4 fit in spades] is lost.

After double and 4♦ from partner you have no rebid and have to pass or gamble with 5♦.

After double and 3♠ from partner you have to pass or gamble with 4♠.

After pass you could miss game.

Holding 18 HCP from 3 Aces and 2 Kings and only one Ten your hand is better suited for trump than 3nt.

So my options would be pass or double depending on the situation.

So what to decide to bid depends on opponents history of the strength for a vun. pre-empt and or your own weak 2 openers.

If opponent regular bid on crap I would double.

If opponent vun. pre-empt are decent or you don't know opponents I would pass.

If you play in a teams and are behind I would double.

If you can open Multi/Muiderberg in your system I would pass.

If I play with my regular partner I would pass trusting he would give a take out double if possible.

[stoppiello]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-February-14, 02:44, said:

Well what do you expect partner to do with say Qxxxx, xx, (A/K)x, xxxx (or the same with the blacks reversed which is close to the example you gave), I'd rather be in 3N than 3♠, not sure I'm getting to 4♠.

Well, with 5 spades to the Q and the AD p is bidding 4 spades, or should be. With the blacks reversed, he only bids 3 spades because it doesn't warrant the jump
the problem comes in when p has Qxxx xx Ax xxxxx but with that, 3 spades is probably enough the fifth trump means alot

[Joe_Old]

I bid 3 NT, but double is a close second.

You have to take some risk to avoid missing a game when you are vulnerable at IMPs, and need to tell your partner that the hand belongs to your side. Partner still has a bid and can correct with something appropriate, like Jxxxxx(x) x xxx(x) xx (6142 or 7132). Partner wouldn't open that mess, but 4♠ is cold.

[Joe_Old]

duplicate

[miamijd]

You have 18; the preemptor probably has around 7-8. That means the old ESP rule (expect seven points) is about right in this case. If you pass, you will lose tons of IMPs much of the time, and you will gain big only in the small portion of the cases where LHO has enough to double (not likely).

So the question is what bid is most likely to land you in the right spot. X is awkward. Partner isn't going to be able to pass for penalties. The only bid you will enjoy hearing is 4S. Otherwise, you'll be stuck wondering what to do if partner bids 3S, and wishing you'd bid 3NT if partner bids 4m.

So just take the bull by the horns; bid 3NT, and hope partner produces the dummy he rates to have.

Cheers,
mike

[msjennifer]

Iwith a regular partner I like to play a double in this position as an optional double promising tolerance for spades and 4+ defensive tricks.This hand appears to have 5 tricks but there is no surety of a second trick in spades.We also play 4C as a strong take out over a 3H/S preempt ( it may be wrong to play this way in the opinion of many).I am against bidding 3NT which is,(our methods has a long strong minor suit and no desire to play in spades).a bid likely to be made by quite a few if not all.My personal bid,therefore,is an optional double as the hand is not suitable for a 4C take out bid.

[miamijd]

 msjennifer, on 2017-February-14, 22:41, said:

Iwith a regular partner I like to play a double in this position as an optional double promising tolerance for spades and 4+ defensive tricks.This hand appears to have 5 tricks but there is no surety of a second trick in spades.We also play 4C as a strong take out over a 3H/S preempt ( it may be wrong to play this way in the opinion of many).I am against bidding 3NT which is,(our methods has a long strong minor suit and no desire to play in spades).a bid likely to be made by quite a few if not all.My personal bid,therefore,is an optional double as the hand is not suitable for a 4C take out bid.

Your treatment is actually a revised version of the old Fishbein convention, where X of a 3-level preempt was penalty-oriented and the next highest suit or cheaper minor was used for takeout. No one plays that any more, and for good reason.

A good example of the problems with your treatment is what to do over 3H with the following hands:

QJTx x AQxx Axxx
Ax x KJTx AKxxxx

The first hand type is rather common. In your system, I guess you have to pass, because you don't have four defensive tricks. Passing on hands like this is a huge loser. You have to X or you'll get robbed blind. If you bid 4C, then there is no way to stop in 3S or to play 3NT. Again, a huge loser in the long run.

And if you play 4C as takeout, then what do you do with hand #2? You are stuck.

Cheers,
Mike