[Winstonm]

After a lot of agony, I opt for double as the fear of the Moysian fit in spades is somewhat counter balanced by the length in clubs.

[eagles123]

the more I look at this hand the more i don't understand the argument for 2n.

- our heart holding is horrid and likely to wrong side the contract
- we have tolerance for all other suits
- as wank points out if p lebs into 3 of a minor we're unlikely to miss game
- as much as bidding 2n pinpoints our values, double shows values as well (albeit not to such a defined range)

what is the advantage of 2n over x on this hand?

[mycroft]

Mostly, (2♥)-2NT-p-3NT vs (2♥)-X-p-2♠-p-?

Given a choice between two calls, one of which limits your hand and the other that does not, there is *always* an advantage to limiting your hand and letting partner make intelligent decisions. Whether the fact that this "15-17 balanced with a heart stopper" is a really bad one is enough of a disadvantage to balance or tip the scales against the limiting call is a question. Whether the fact that "the suit partner is going to strain to bid if I double" is only 3 cards, or the fact that the lead (as long as it isn't a heart) is going to go through the kings is enough of a disadvantage to double to push the bad 2NT call to the forefront is also a question.

I tend toward sound direct overcalls of preempts. Many don't like the fact that they get preempted out of a lot of auctions, so they'd double with a king or more less. They have the added disadvantage of the double that advancer will want even more to invite than my partners, which makes the stronger-minimum 2NT call even more of a draw.

[Phil]

eagles123, on 2016-June-09, 14:59, said:

the more I look at this hand the more i don't understand the argument for 2n.

- our heart holding is horrid and likely to wrong side the contract

This presumes partner's heart holding is good enough to bid NT. Partner probably isn't bidding it on Qx or JTx, and holdings like KJx may not matter anyway. The only clear win for trying to right side this is Q-third.

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- we have tolerance for all other suits

We also have a balanced hand and a trick source. I'm not feeling particularly good about putting this hand down in 4♠ and I cringe at putting it down in 3♦.

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- as wank points out if p lebs into 3 of a minor we're unlikely to miss game

But minimum 2N calls from partner do exactly that. Plus we have good fillers in his suit which makes NT more likely.

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- as much as bidding 2n pinpoints our values, double shows values as well (albeit not to such a defined range)

Not even close. I would double with a stiff heart and at least an ace less.

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what is the advantage of 2n over x on this hand?

Because its so descriptive as to point count and the hand wants to play NT.

[mike777]

alphred, on 2016-June-08, 13:45, said:

We are vulnerable, opps not. RHO opens 2H. I have:

♠ K 9 6
♥ A 2
♦ K Q 9
♣ K J 8 7 4

What is my bid?

Thank you all

Double...tough hands as usual I fall back on options to double or cuebid.

Have no objection if you prefer 2nt.

[rhm]

Phil, on 2016-June-09, 19:23, said:

This presumes partner's heart holding is good enough to bid NT. Partner probably isn't bidding it on Qx or JTx, and holdings like KJx may not matter anyway. The only clear win for trying to right side this is Q-third.

A matter of contention. I often bid notrumps in fourth seat holding Qx or JTx in LHO suit if RHO has not raised and had rarely cause for regret.

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We also have a balanced hand and a trick source. I'm not feeling particularly good about putting this hand down in 4♠ and I cringe at putting it down in 3♦.

If partner jumps to 4♠ I presume he will not do this unless holding long spades and 3NT is not an option. Then what is the issue?
If partner lebs into 3♦ I am certainly better off than having overcalled 2NT.
If partner bids 3♦ directly I will try 3♥ asking for some help in ♥. Again I feel much more comfortable than with 2NT

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But minimum 2N calls from partner do exactly that. Plus we have good fillers in his suit which makes NT more likely.

I do not understand what you claim here. You will go down at least 90% of the time , often doubled, when partner would use leb over a double.
Often 3NT will not make with this stopper from this side even when 25 HCP are present between the 2 hands

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Not even close. I would double with a stiff heart and at least an ace less.

True so what. Double encompasses many hands and is not well limited. As the cheapest and safest intervention it should not be.

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Because its so descriptive as to point count and the hand wants to play NT.

Overcalling 2NT with the wrong type of stopper is not descriptive, it is dangerous. If partner passes I doubt you will make and partner will often raise and game has no play.
I want to play NT only when it will likely show a profit.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

I read arguments and I change my vote from 2 NT to

2 NT

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2016-June-10, 07:41, said:

I read arguments and I change my vote from 2 NT to

2 NT

LOL, somehow I knew you would write something like that Timo!!!

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2016-June-10, 07:57, said:

LOL, somehow I knew you would write something like that Timo!!!

Zel, most people here (not all DBL supporters but most) expects no competition or raise by opener's partner. And they also expect them to have 9 card fit each time they raise. This is not the case, however, people open with 5 cards or raise with 2 cards too. You can guess what happens after that because it happened to me a lot but I am not really into writing a whole page of it because I really do not care whether one insists on doubling or bidding 2 NT with that type of hand. I am bored of this topic.

[mycroft]

Yeah, I didn't even think about 2♥-X-3♥-? vs 2♥-2NT-3♥. That's just ugly, and it sure does happen.

Somewhat off-topic, I find this cute:

mycroft said:

Many don't like the fact that they get preempted out of a lot of auctions, so they'd double with a king or more less.

Phil, immediately after, said:

I would double with a stiff heart and at least an ace less.

[jogs]

What if RHO has ♥ KJT98x and partner has ♥ Qx? Maybe NT plays better from partner's side.

[Phil]

jogs, on 2016-June-10, 14:45, said:

What if RHO has ♥ KJT98x and partner has ♥ Qx? Maybe NT plays better from partner's side.

And after LHO raises I'm sure your partner magically bids 3N.

[Fluffy]

jogs, on 2016-June-10, 14:45, said:

What if RHO has ♥ KJT98x and partner has ♥ Qx? Maybe NT plays better from partner's side.

What if RHO has ♥J1098xx and partner has ♥Qx? Maybe NT plays worse from partner's side.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2016-June-10, 16:33, said:

And after LHO raises I'm sure your partner magically bids 3N.

Let alone LHO raising hearts, assume 3m constructive response from partner, it will still be the hand with Ax to bid 3 NT. Of course the hand with Ax can cue, risking to lose 3 NT if pd has no stopper, or pd bids 3 NT with Qx just to see you had Jx instead of Ax on another hand. Trying to defend to DBL with these hands is like walking on a soft sand. The more you try to get out the more you sink!

[gszes]

X and I just do not feel it is that close. 2N accomplishes 1 thing telling p u are roughly 16-18 balanced with a heart stopper. The price you pay can be quite a bit however; wrongsiding NT - losing the minor suits - and possibly even the spade suit. Ax is ok but hardly great for control of the weak 2 suit. x handles virtually all sequences well and can even right side 3N.

x = 8 2n = 4

[rhm]

Fluffy, on 2016-June-10, 17:05, said:

What if RHO has ♥J1098xx and partner has ♥Qx? Maybe NT plays worse from partner's side.

I am not claiming that playing notrumps from the Ax side will always be wrong.
For example partner could have JTx and LHO Hx.

Bridge is a game of probabilities.
In your case hearts are 6-3 and the chance that the heart king is with the weak two bidder is at least twice as likely than the other way round.

I prefer to cater for the probable scenarios. You can cater for the remote one as MrAce seems to prefer as well.

Rainer Herrmann