[diana_eva]

1eyedjack, on 2016-May-20, 13:27, said:

Shares in popcorn have just jumped.

Show ends here.

----------------------------------------------


PhilG you had plenty of chances from everyone. Take a long deserved vacation and just read for once. You can try again in 3 months. If you still are not able to stay on topic and quit the fist fighting attitude you are no longer welcome here.

Later edit: I've moved replies related to PG and moderator decision here.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2016-May-21, 07:46
Reason for edit: split topic

[bluechip10]

PhilG007, on 2016-May-19, 07:00, said:

The title of this topic comes from tip No 7 in Paul Mendelson's excellent book " 100 tips for Better Bridge" He says :-

"The problem with hands like these is that as they contain three features,they really need three bids to convey their content.
In systems like Acol,when you can't freely bid two different 4 card suits,a considerable amount of fibbing is then involved.
The result of all this is you frequently end up in 4-3 trump fits(having to ruff in your own hand) and hopeless misfit NT contracts
short on points.
The solution is a simple one DON'T OPEN THE BIDDING WITH THIS DISTRIBUTION WITH ONLY 12 OR 13 POINTS

---

Let's say you open 1♥and partner responds 1♠(there is no problem if he bids anything else) In Acol you're stuck
If you play strong NT with 5 card majors and open a minor suit and get a 1♠ reply all you can do now is re-bid 1NT
This is a sure way of going down,possibly doubled,whenever partner is weak.
Just pass. If partner bids,you will be back in action. If he bids 1♠ on a minimum opener,you will now stay out
of a dodgy Game you couldn't have avoided had you opened,if he bids anything else you can get excited.
If an opponent opens 1♠,you have an ideal 2nd round double. If they bid anything else then you know that your pass was justified.
In the long run you will find yourself staying out of all these horrid contracts you wish you hadn't been faced with
With 14+ points, if partner bids your singleton you can re-bid NTs without risking so much.
The down side? A few missed part scores. Missing Game is impossible. If partner can't bid,what contract can you possibly miss?"

One of the many uses of the opening 2♦ bid is to show a 4-4-4-1 hand and 12 to 16 points. This is called Mini-Roman. Lots of variations. Google it and read up.

[cosmickone]

We play mini Roman 10-12 4-4-4-1 5-4-4
Forcing bid is 2nt
All other bids to play. Must be ready f or a correction

[pigpenz]

we always played it 10-13 hcp, mini roman

[johnu]

bluechip10, on 2016-May-20, 15:17, said:

One of the many uses of the opening 2♦ bid is to show a 4-4-4-1 hand and 12 to 16 points. This is called Mini-Roman. Lots of variations. Google it and read up.

I've played a version of this for many years in my Blue Team Club system, and while it does show your distribution, potential users need to know that responder has a number of problem hands where you might get to a bad contract.

1) Responder has a minimum 5=2=3=3 and opener 1=4=4=4
Responder will bid 2♠ and you might end up in 2NT or 3 of a minor with a 4-3 fit

2) Responder has a minimum 5=3=3=2 and opener is 4=4-1-4
Responder might/could bid 2♥ so you can play in a 4-3 fit at the 2 level. If opener has a singleton spade, bidding 2♠ will be the same as in example 1) If opener also has 4 spades, you miss a 5-4 spade fit (maybe a good game) to play a 4-3 heart partscore.

3) Responder has a minimum 2=2=3=6 and opener is 4=4=4=1.
Responder will probably bid 3♣ and opener will probably pass and you play a 6-1 fit

4) Responder has a minimum 2=2=6=3 and opener is 4=4=1=4
Responder will probably pass and you'll play in a 6-1 fit.

That's not to say that natural bidding will always get to an optimal contract, but natural bidding does start a level lower.

[Fluffy]

fromageGB, on 2016-May-19, 07:24, said:

Always open a 12 count 3-suiter. It is an extremely powerful shape.....

It is not, 4441 is kind of the "4333" of the unbalanced hands. It is often 1 trick worse than 5431. This won't stop me from opening, but I don't get overexcited with it. I systematically passed one of them on my strong club system for a while, but eventally gave up on that. It was a bit random.

[jcl2]

after pass p open 1 spade
what is your bidding
jcl2

[yunling]

My idea is quite the opposite. I open most 11-count 4441(5 card major so mostly 1♦, though) and it works well in competitive bidding.
For suit contracts, 4441 is a mild plus for playing strength and has very good defensive potential.
Despite its strength, the shape has a poor ODR and often cannot afford to compete to 3 level, so the pass-then-double-for-takeout stretagy can turnout to be a disaster.

---

Both vul
This hand is played at 2012 spingold. Weinstein passed as north, Helness opened 1♠ and Helgemo raised to 2♠. Now Weinstein decided to double for takeout
At the other table Multon opened 1♦, Meckwell bid 3NT and was doubled for 1 down.

[Zelandakh]

yunling, on 2016-May-21, 10:05, said:

This hand is played at 2012 spingold. Weinstein passed as north, Helness opened 1♠ and Helgemo raised to 2♠. Now Weinstein decided to double for takeout
At the other table Multon opened 1♦, Meckwell bid 3NT and was doubled for 1 down.

Perhaps PK could go through his database and find all 4441 hands that were opened 1m on one table and passed on the other, then collate the results for different hcp levels. Excluding hands with a singleton honour from the results would be a good idea but I think it might be an interesting set of statistics.

[fromageGB]

wank, on 2016-May-20, 10:34, said:

which bid are you thinking of which says that? ok, if you're playing an unbalanced diamond you're obviously in a superior , but still dubious, position, because you can play a 2D or ideally 1NT rebid as showing hearts, so at least you'll not miss your 44 heart fit.

The bid depends on whether the partnership is playing natural continuations or an artificial reply (different partners, but 1♦ is 6+ card or has singleton/void elsewhere).

NATURAL : 1♦ 1M 1NT=3-suiter short in M
ART : with this method, a reply of 1♥ is less than invitational with either or both majors, while 1♠ = any invitational or better.
1♦ 1♥! 1♠ = 3-suiter with spades, or 4x6x, and if responder has spades he raises, if he bids 1NT/2♣/2♦, opener knows he has hearts and will support. Responder can also rebid 2♥ with both majors in case opener's hearts are better than the spades.
1♦ 1♠! 1NT!= ANY 3-suiter, then 2♣ asks with opener bidding the one beneath the shortage, or responder rebids 2♥ with just a bare invitation and both majors.

But I don't think it matters what methods you play providing 1♦ has a shortage, because it will always be easy to find the fits.

[SixOfWands]

PhilG007, on 2016-May-19, 07:00, said:

The title of this topic comes from tip No 7 in Paul Mendelson's excellent book " 100 tips for Better Bridge" He says :-

"The problem with hands like these is that as they contain three features,they really need three bids to convey their content.
In systems like Acol,when you can't freely bid two different 4 card suits,a considerable amount of fibbing is then involved.
The result of all this is you frequently end up in 4-3 trump fits(having to ruff in your own hand) and hopeless misfit NT contracts
short on points.
The solution is a simple one DON'T OPEN THE BIDDING WITH THIS DISTRIBUTION WITH ONLY 12 OR 13 POINTS

---

Let's say you open 1♥and partner responds 1♠(there is no problem if he bids anything else) In Acol you're stuck
If you play strong NT with 5 card majors and open a minor suit and get a 1♠ reply all you can do now is re-bid 1NT
This is a sure way of going down,possibly doubled,whenever partner is weak.
Just pass. If partner bids,you will be back in action. If he bids 1♠ on a minimum opener,you will now stay out
of a dodgy Game you couldn't have avoided had you opened,if he bids anything else you can get excited.
If an opponent opens 1♠,you have an ideal 2nd round double. If they bid anything else then you know that your pass was justified.
In the long run you will find yourself staying out of all these horrid contracts you wish you hadn't been faced with
With 14+ points, if partner bids your singleton you can re-bid NTs without risking so much.
The down side? A few missed part scores. Missing Game is impossible. If partner can't bid,what contract can you possibly miss?"

If you pass with 12 points you may pass out the hand for a bottom or the opponents may open 1NT and steal the hand.
What is worse about passing is that you're short in spades, the highest ranking suit and the opponents are very likely to have a fit there.
What are you going to do on the next round when the opponents bid and raise their weak 2S to 4S?
Don't open 1♥ with this shape open 1♦ in Acol of 5CM.
If partner responds 1♠ you have at least 18 points and 1NT would be a viable option, if they want to double bring it on!
If you play 12-14 NT then you can rebid 2♣ and give partner a choice of suits.
if the opponents compete in spades at least partner knows I have some points and we may find a penalty.

[creatbid]

I really don't understand where are the problems. First are comments made by Paul Mendelson that "they really need three bids to convey their content". Who teach you to raise three times with a low-limit only？For example, will you bid 1♥-2♠ with Axxx Axxxx Kx Jx？What's more, if you give up the first chance to open your hand, will you more probably have better opportunity to discribe what you hold after opponents waste the space of bidding？Secondly, how are you sure that this 1nt usually gets down with a double？It's frequent to see an opener with a free bid to play 1nt but they don't as you worry about deserve down and low-limt. Maybe you just need try a better play？I really hope you review again the whole of basic concepts of contract bridge before making yourself stuck on those problems you posted here.

[mike777]

SixOfWands, on 2016-May-21, 16:49, said:

If you pass with 12 points you may pass out the hand for a bottom or the opponents may open 1NT and steal the hand.
What is worse about passing is that you're short in spades, the highest ranking suit and the opponents are very likely to have a fit there.
What are you going to do on the next round when the opponents bid and raise their weak 2S to 4S?
Don't open 1♥ with this shape open 1♦ in Acol of 5CM.
If partner responds 1♠ you have at least 18 points and 1NT would be a viable option, if they want to double bring it on!
If you play 12-14 NT then you can rebid 2♣ and give partner a choice of suits.
if the opponents compete in spades at least partner knows I have some points and we may find a penalty.

1) you quote the facts i in fact you misquote a few
2) the rest is nonsense....complete nonsense


the result is you get the wrong conclusion.


passing this hand within agreements is just fine
----


I note the common very common complaint...the opp may steal the hand....yet you present zero evidence
--

my answer to you rquestion what if the opp bid 4s what do i bid is easy....PASS

[rhm]

mike777, on 2016-May-22, 01:10, said:

passing this hand within agreements is just fine
I note the common very common complaint...the opp may steal the hand....yet you present zero evidence

Some trivial observations:

Assume a deal is competitive:

In one room North opens the bidding.
In the other North passes and East opens the bidding.

Which side do you believe is on average better positioned to beat absolute par (my definition of stealing).
North in the first room or in the latter?
It does not really matter to which side the absolute par contract belongs.

I think this can easily be shown in the way Richard Pavlicek has done such statistical analysis and published on his website, though I won't undertake it.
This is one reason why requirements for opening the bidding have gone down over the last decades.
The true Roth Stone approach to opening the bidding is all but extinct at top level play.
Opening the bidding has certainly tactical advantages, passing a 4441 12 count is problematic - not just fine.

Rainer Herrmann

[wank]

rhm, on 2016-May-22, 01:42, said:

Some trivial observations:

Assume a deal is competitive:

In one room North opens the bidding.
In the other North passes and East opens the bidding.

Which side do you believe is on average better positioned to beat absolute par (my definition of stealing).
North in the first room or in the latter?
It does not really matter to which side the absolute par contract belongs.

I think this can easily be shown in the way Richard Pavlicek has done such statistical analysis and published on his website, though I won't undertake it.
This is one reason why requirements for opening the bidding have gone down over the last decades.
The true Roth Stone approach to opening the bidding is all but extinct at top level play.
Opening the bidding has certainly tactical advantages, passing a 4441 12 count is problematic - not just fine.

Rainer Herrmann

thanks for that. i'll change my opening range to 0+

[johnu]

wank, on 2016-May-22, 12:28, said:

thanks for that. i'll change my opening range to 0+

Another convert to a forcing pass system

[dalmov]

I will not open this hand, not only because it has only 12 HCPs, but because it has only 2.5 quick tricks, which is under average (3 quick tricks).

[the_clown]

I would strongly consider opening a 12-14 NT at favourable.

[neilkaz]

I tell my PD's to open all 12 HCP hands unless they are extremely quacky and flawed. This one is a WTP 1♦ opening. I find this to be a more successful approach than being anchored to advice from 30+ years ago.

[1eyedjack]

Yup, happy with 1N

[EDIT] Oops already said that once. This thread really seems to have legs.