[Al_U_Card]

The pound has lost 15% to the euro since June. Not so much a plummet as a decline.

Here in Canada, we lost about 30% to the U$ over the last year or so. Off season fruit and veg are much more expensive than they should be but we are getting a greater variety of sources...

We have been worse in the recent past (50% below U$) and better (5% above) with not much of a difference long-term.

Brexit-shmexit.

[Zelandakh]

Al_U_Card, on 2016-October-13, 06:56, said:

The pound has lost 15% to the euro since June. Not so much a plummet as a decline.

Perhaps you could refer us to the last time the exchange rate stood at $1.22 per pound so we could compare with that "recent past".

[helene_t]

1eyedjack, on 2016-October-13, 06:39, said:

My perception of the Brexiteers is that they take a longer term view. Market fluctuations caused by market speculators is not of primary concern to them, nor were they unexpected. Incidentally, there is also a large part of the UK business world that is not doing badly at all out of the recent fluctuations. It may be rather premature to criticise them for being in denial, if the current snapshot is atypical of the position in 5 years time.

As much as I would like brexiters to regret their decision (and obviously there will be some who just meant their brexit vote as an anti-Cameron protest, or fell for the NHS funding lie and have since woken up), I think this is largely correct. For most, it was about getting rid of the Brussels overlords and/or about getting rid of immigrants. So government initiatives like protecting troops against human right lawsuits, and registration of immigrant school children, may well be perceived as "Brexit is even better than I hoped for".

Personally, I am also a little bit fed up with all that exchange rate and stock exchange index panic. The falling pound just shows us that many dealers think that many dealers think that many dealers think [.....] that May's policies are bad for the economy, at least in the short term. Personally, I tend to agree that they are bad for the economy, especially in the long term. But the falling pound is unsurprising, and not good evidence for it.

[Al_U_Card]

Zelandakh, on 2016-October-13, 07:43, said:

Perhaps you could refer us to the last time the exchange rate stood at $1.22 per pound so we could compare with that "recent past".

Perhaps you could read that I was referring to Can/US as a comparison and that it shows that monetary exchange vagaries vary and get absorbed without catastrophy.

[Vampyr]

Trinidad, on 2016-October-13, 05:34, said:

Thanks for the info!

It seems to me that a large part of the UK public is in stage 1 of coping with grieve and loss: Denial. They want to live on as if nothing has happened.

The next stages will be anger (some people seem to be there already, at least they blame Unilever for the UK mess), bargaining (the UK ain't ready for that yet), depression (yes, the worst is still to come) and acceptance (this may take a while).

Rik

Wow you are so bitter. Try not to take it too personally. Brexit was about leaving you specifically.

[wank]

a load of xenophobes and other ignoramuses screwed me and my descendants. why would anyone not be bitter about that?

[Cyberyeti]

wank, on 2016-October-13, 15:58, said:

a load of xenophobes and other ignoramuses screwed me and my descendants. why would anyone not be bitter about that?

This is the typical attitude of many Remainers that utterly pisses off the many Brexiteers who are none of those things. Of the 4 people I know for a fact voted out, 3 are educated types with an intimate knowledge of the potential consequences of what they were doing. The other is a bridge player and I wouldn't argue anything like as much about the description

[cherdano]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-17, 04:32, said:

This is the typical attitude of many Remainers that utterly pisses off the many Brexiteers who are none of those things. Of the 4 people I know for a fact voted out, 3 are educated types with an intimate knowledge of the potential consequences of what they were doing. The other is a bridge player and I wouldn't argue anything like as much about the description

I am sure your friends are protesting, now that Theresa May has made clear that the mandate from Brexit is to throw out foreign doctors, and enable hostility to all other kinds of foreign workers? I would be furious if my vote would misconstrued in such a terrible manner.

[Cyberyeti]

cherdano, on 2016-October-17, 05:01, said:

I am sure your friends are protesting, now that Theresa May has made clear that the mandate from Brexit is to throw out foreign doctors, and enable hostility to all other kinds of foreign workers? I would be furious if my vote would misconstrued in such a terrible manner.

The one I've chatted to more recently (actually not a UK citizen, he and his wife are from different non UK EU countries with British student age kids) not. I believe little of what's said by UK/EU at the moment and treat it all as setting up negociating positions.

[helene_t]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-17, 06:04, said:

The one I've chatted to more recently (actually not a UK citizen, he and his wife are from different non UK EU countries with British student age kids) not. I believe little of what's said by UK/EU at the moment and treat it all as setting up negociating positions.

I am not sure that makes it so much better (but that might also not be your point).

Promoting hatred because one genuinely feels hatred, or promoting hatred because one thinks that pretending to be a xenophobe is a good negotiation tactic, and considering the victims of the hatred to be collateral damage. I don't know which is worse.

Before WWII, Daily Mail repeatedly agitated against giving shelter to Jewish refugees from Germany. They have gone full circle by now: http://www.independe...s-a7357591.html

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2016-October-17, 06:15, said:

I am not sure that makes it so much better (but that might also not be your point).

Promoting hatred because one genuinely feels hatred, or promoting hatred because one thinks that pretending to be a xenophobe is a good negotiation tactic, and considering the victims of the hatred to be collateral damage. I don't know which is worse.

Before WWII, Daily Mail repeatedly agitated against giving shelter to Jewish refugees from Germany. They have gone full circle by now: http://www.independe...s-a7357591.html

I don't think anybody is PROMOTING hatred in mainstream politics, but a few on the fringes are. The problem is that the racists have taken encouragement from the Brexit vote.

I think it's a case of "If we rule out this option, then we lose it as a bargaining chip". I have every expectation that EU citizens in the UK and Brits in the EU will get reciprocal rights and that they will see very little change, but if the UK says "yes you can all stay", the EU has a free hand to offer what it likes.

There is a major difference between now and the WWII situation. If we didn't offer shelter at that time, they had nowhere to go, they would very likely have died. Now they've already passed through at least 2 countries (and often many more) that are safe, and are letting them head for Britain rather than discharging their obligations. If some of the intervening countries recorded and accommodated the migrants in any sensible fashion (and if they refused they didn't get in), the ones with a claim for asylum in the UK due to relatives here etc could be handled without the squalor of Calais.

[blackshoe]

onoway, on 2016-August-10, 11:05, said:

Someone a while ago asked what research there was to support the concept of crowding leading to problems for society.

"If too many animals are crowded into too small a space, they will all go insane. Man is the only animal who voluntarily does this to himself." -- R. A. Heinlein

[Trinidad]

1eyedjack, on 2016-October-13, 06:39, said:

I am curious to know how you perceive the demographics of the "large part of the UK public" who are "in denial". Do you mean Bremainers, or Brexiteers? Or both?

I mean everybody who denies that product prices should increase when the value of your currency drops significantly (i.e. those Brits who point at Unilever for inflation instead of at the Brexit voters). They are in denial. Whether they voted Brexit or Bremain is irrelevant to me (though I expect that there will be a correlation).

Rik

[Cyberyeti]

Trinidad, on 2016-October-18, 00:41, said:

I mean everybody who denies that product prices should increase when the value of your currency drops significantly (i.e. those Brits who point at Unilever for inflation instead of at the Brexit voters). They are in denial. Whether they voted Brexit or Bremain is irrelevant to me (though I expect that there will be a correlation).

Rik

The problem was that Unilever was hiking prices of stuff made in the UK from UK ingredients as well.

[fromageGB]

If the price of Marmite increases because of the usual corporate greed when there is a currency change (think decimalisation) or supply change (think domestic fuel/petrol prices) then once we have a free trade deal with Australia, which we are forbidden to do as part of the EU, we can switch to Vegemite.

Seriously, though, this devaluation is government policy and not purely related to a possible Brexit that is at least 2.5 years away if it happens. We need to get used to rising inflation.

[cherdano]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-October-17, 08:10, said:

I think it's a case of "If we rule out this option, then we lose it as a bargaining chip". I have every expectation that EU citizens in the UK and Brits in the EU will get reciprocal rights and that they will see very little change, but if the UK says "yes you can all stay", the EU has a free hand to offer what it likes.

It's only a bargaining position if it can plausibly happen. How would you feel about hearing "No, Cyberyeti probably won't have to leave this country (where he has been living for 15 years, he has his job and his kids are going to school). He is only being used as a bargaining chip."

But it doesn't even make sense as a bargaining chip. Do you really think other EU countries mind if they "have to" let highly qualified doctors immigrate? Many EU countries have a shortfall on doctors, and some of them have a government with reasonable views on immigration.

I think May announced that foreign NHS doctors will lose their jobs because that's what she wants to do, or what she thinks voters want to hear, not in order to improve her non-existing bargaining leverage.

[fromageGB]

cherdano, on 2016-October-17, 05:01, said:

I am sure your friends are protesting, now that Theresa May has made clear that the mandate from Brexit is to throw out foreign doctors, and enable hostility to all other kinds of foreign workers?

You and I are reading different things. I have not seen a report of May espousing throwing out foreign doctors and hostility to all kinds of foreign workers. What I have see in that we might now start accepting for training those qualified UK medical students who have in the past applied but been rejected in favour of saving money by bringing in more doctors from abroad, and I have seen that a possible option would be to introduce work permits to allow import of workers, rather than letting any immigrant in who wishes just to be unemployed and perhaps look for work.

Are these bad ideas?

[cherdano]

fromageGB, on 2016-October-18, 04:29, said:

You and I are reading different things.

We do.

Quote

I have not seen a report of May espousing throwing out foreign doctors and hostility to all kinds of foreign workers.

Hunt promised to make the NHS "self-sufficient in doctors" by 2025. Logically, that means asking foreign doctors have to leave by then.

May was asked to clarify by BBC breakfast, and said "Yes, there will be staff here from overseas in the interim period until the further numbers of British doctors are trained and come on board in terms of being able to work in our hospitals, so we will ensure that the numbers are there."
(Emphasis mine.)

As for hostility against foreign workers, how else would you describe a plan forcing companies to publicly list all their foreign employees? Here is a timeline:
http://www.mirror.co...rs-list-9030397

Of course, this plan is so idiotic that even a UKIP/Tory government would never implement it, but the mere announcement is clearly aimed at pandering to and encouraging the xenophobes.

[fromageGB]

I see hedge funds are more important than democratic decisions.

Parliament voted 544 to 53 to refer the EU membership decision to the people. Voters were given a booklet saying "this is your decision, the government will implement what you decide". Voters decided to leave.

Now bigwigs are apparently saying that the vote meant nothing, that we voted the wrong way, and that it doesn't count. Well, I was perhaps naive, but for a while I believed in democracy.

[helene_t]

The bigwigs didn't turn over brexit. They just turned over Teressa May's dictatorial powers. Sounds reasonable to me. It is very unlikely that the parlament will vote against Brexit, but at least May is now forced to provide some transparency.

UK is not a full democracy - the press and the government are both owned by big money, the electoral system is a joke, and the once independent BBC has been bullied into becoming yet another arm of the government's propaganda machine.

What makes UK in a better position than other nominal democracies such as Turkey, Russia and Poland is that at least the judiciary is independent. For now.