[rhm]

 wank, on 2016-January-26, 03:46, said:

yes of course it's legal.

i never said i'm more likely to psyche against weak players. in fact, it's quite the opposite and i play most of my bridge in a country unpolluted by convention cards (they're mostly useless, though i do like the EBU leads diagram).

the authorities police whether or not one's psyching habits constitute an implicit understanding through the use of psyche record forms. fwiw my partner wrote on the form that i had never psyched with him, but i had made such a psyche against him (he's a globally recognised bridge name). i don't think that constitutes an implicit agreement to psyche against bad players.

What I dislike is that most posters give implicitly the impression that psyching in the bidding is something legal but tainted, in particular against weaker players.
What is objectionable is having implicit agreements which you keep hidden from opponents. But this is not something confined to psyches.

Like in real life, in poker or in the play of the cards, deception is part of the game and we need no thought police to regulate this matter any further.
End of story.

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

Opponent's fun is part of the game, anything that steals it from them should be used with care.

End of story.

[helene_t]

 1eyedjack, on 2016-January-23, 16:17, said:

Well, if in his capacity as a TD he presides (only) over ACBL regulated games, it is at least appropriate that he provides rulings appropriate to that jurisdiction.

Except that OP didn't ask for legal advice.

[rhm]

 Fluffy, on 2016-January-26, 04:53, said:

Opponent's fun is part of the game, anything that steals it from them should be used with care.

End of story.

With all respect this has been addressed and dealt with already above. Just read the thread before you reply.
I do not think the basic rules and etiquette of the game need any complex additions to further that.

 Fluffy, on 2016-January-25, 08:57, said:

I had a beginner friend who quit bridge after being psyched by a world master. It is the feeling that they make you feel stupid. Or in this case robbed as this was last round and this world master has a terrible reputation of getting info from hands he is going to play later.

Your beginner seems to be particularly unsuited for this game if a single deal can put him off.
The game is full of such frustrations and that is true for about any game, which is intellectually challenging.
Maybe canasta or cooncan is what your beginner should try instead.

Rainer Herrmann

[Vampyr]

 wank, on 2016-January-26, 03:46, said:

i never said i'm more likely to psyche against weak players. in fact, it's quite the opposite and i play most of my bridge in a country unpolluted by convention cards (they're mostly useless, though i do like the EBU leads diagram).

You should play in England, where convention cards are required and virtually everyone has them.

[billw55]

I would be interested in an experiment. At large tournaments, offer events or sections in which psyches are explicitly forbidden by rule. In USA this would be regionals and nationals. Then simply let demand run its course and see what happens.

Of course, the sample will not be representative: many of those who object to psyches may enter tournaments less frequently if at all. But it would still be interesting to see. For those others, the same can be done at club games, and probably is being done already in some places.

[mycroft]

Oh that would be fun. "He psyched 2♥!" No, they're playing EHAA, and even - as required - Pre-Alerted and Alerted it, and 65432 is not only expected, but *required* - pass would have been the psychic.

"She psyched 1♥!" No, their agreement is that a 1M rebid after 1♣-1♦ simply shows an unbalanced hand. They did Alert it, you didn't ask. It's legal, too.

"He psyched 1NT!" No, he had a "senior moment" and thought that partner, not RHO, opened 1♥.

"No Psychics" games on BBO turn into "bid the way we expect you to bid" games, and if you don't, expect to have a great deal of grief from players and TDs alike.

And yes, even playing a "normal" system, I've had the TD called in a "no psyches" club for a perfectly "normal" bid.
Thanks, no.

[billw55]

 mycroft, on 2016-January-26, 11:29, said:

Oh that would be fun. "He psyched 2♥!" No, they're playing EHAA, and even - as required - Pre-Alerted and Alerted it, and 65432 is not only expected, but *required* - pass would have been the psychic.

"She psyched 1♥!" No, their agreement is that a 1M rebid after 1♣-1♦ simply shows an unbalanced hand. They did Alert it, you didn't ask. It's legal, too.

"He psyched 1NT!" No, he had a "senior moment" and thought that partner, not RHO, opened 1♥.

"No Psychics" games on BBO turn into "bid the way we expect you to bid" games, and if you don't, expect to have a great deal of grief from players and TDs alike.

And yes, even playing a "normal" system, I've had the TD called in a "no psyches" club for a perfectly "normal" bid.

Thanks, no.

Obviously, I expect the preference of forum posters to be almost 100% for psyches allowed, including my own. But come on, do you really think anyone playing EHAA would enter a no-psyche event? It will obviously be preferred by novices and lols, and not by serious players.

If silly director calls become a big problem, that would be reflected in decreasing demand.

[etha]

They used to have events in England for the opponents of the op to play in they were called No Fear events and I think the idea was to allow beginners to play in a no psyches or weird conventions environment and experience a tournament. I've no idea if they still exist though, and certainly for anyone who has played more than a Cpl of tournaments not allowing psyches is clearly not bridge.

When I was young I played at a local club and opened 1nt every single hand when it was passed to me.
I got to the last table and there was a 93 and a 87 year old and I thought hmm its a bit unfair to bid 1nt here so I passed my 16 count and it went pass 1 heart pass so I bid 3nt making 11 for a top, the field played 6nt -1 oddly. This was more and experiment to show 1nt is always the right bid than anything else and it was of course almost certainly illegal though pard was a pretty straight as a die person and I didn't actually notice any odd bidding.

Anyway to sum up psyching is part of bridge but clubs have the right to hold events or normal club nights and say please don't do it against people who might be offended. But at anything like a competitive level it is a ridiculous proposition.

[etha]

I thought of another point.
lets say a pair agrees that 3rd in hand bids can be made on anything. Is this a legal agreement or do you have to have a minimum HCP for openers?
If a country has a rule where there is a limit on the HCP then does this become a psyche?
At the top level it would seem to make sense to just gather the data electronically of what bids are made with what hands and then simply tell the opponents in the system disclosure. So in the example above the cc would simply say 3rd in hand bids can be made on anything which would match the bids made. And if it turned out they were more defined then a matching tool could deal with that too.

[paulg]

 etha, on 2016-January-28, 07:30, said:

I thought of another point.
lets say a pair agrees that 3rd in hand bids can be made on anything. Is this a legal agreement or do you have to have a minimum HCP for openers?
If a country has a rule where there is a limit on the HCP then does this become a psyche?
At the top level it would seem to make sense to just gather the data electronically of what bids are made with what hands and then simply tell the opponents in the system disclosure. So in the example above the cc would simply say 3rd in hand bids can be made on anything which would match the bids made. And if it turned out they were more defined then a matching tool could deal with that too.

In the EBU, and many other jurisdictions, there is a minimum point count that is permitted by agreement for one-level opening bids, so any agreement to have less than this is illegal. The reaction of the authorities if you open one point below this limit without agreement pretty much covers the range of possibilities depending on where you play. For example, I'd recommend doing it in England before trying it in New England.

A lot of people advocate capturing data on what pairs actually do. I'm not as convinced as many that this data could be turned into information but it could be useful in a witch hunt.

[etha]

 paulg, on 2016-January-28, 07:51, said:

In the EBU, and many other jurisdictions, there is a minimum point count that is permitted by agreement for one-level opening bids, so any agreement to have less than this is illegal. The reaction of the authorities if you open one point below this limit without agreement pretty much covers the range of possibilities depending on where you play. For example, I'd recommend doing it in England before trying it in New England.

A lot of people advocate capturing data on what pairs actually do. I'm not as convinced as many that this data could be turned into information but it could be useful in a witch hunt.

So the regulations pretty much force you to Psyche if you think it is a winning action to open with low HCP in 3rd seat. Maybe the regulations are the cause of the problem? The rules as I understand them are pretty stupid you are allowed to do something that is against the rules provided you pretend you never thought of it before. I mean how long do you have to play before you see a light 3rd in hand opener? It is either against the rules or it isn't, having this wishy-washy well its against the regulations but you can do it once or twice with the same partner when it has been recorded is silly.

[billw55]

 etha, on 2016-January-28, 08:03, said:

So the regulations pretty much force you to Psyche if you think it is a winning action to open with low HCP in 3rd seat. Maybe the regulations are the cause of the problem? The rules as I understand them are pretty stupid you are allowed to do something that is against the rules provided you pretend you never thought of it before. I mean how long do you have to play before you see a light 3rd in hand opener? It is either against the rules or it isn't, having this wishy-washy well its against the regulations but you can do it once or twice with the same partner when it has been recorded is silly.

My own opinion is that any bidding system or agreements whatsoever should be legal as long as they are adequately disclosed.

I suppose it is my upbringing: I cut my gaming teeth as a tournament chess player in high school and college. I have tried to imagine FIDE or USCF banning otherwise legal moves because some, even most, players find them unusual and/or are not prepared for them. The whole idea just makes me laugh. Sorry, most people don't study the Diemer, not allowed. The hedgehog annoys some people, not allowed. And that whole Sicilian thing is just way too radical and chaotic! We do permit the Catalan, but you must provide a written defense to your opponent before play begins. Lmao?

But a substantial fraction of bridge players prefer to be safe from the unexpected. So the supply meets the demand.

[keithhus]

I wasn't aware of psyching until I read this posting. I am a beginner but just to let you know, similar issues happen at my level. This week I had 11HCP and 7 D ( void in S). After a little deliberation, I pre-empted and opened 3 D - 4 D made. This was top board; contract being played by ops on all the other tables. My Ops were very upset when they found out I had 11 HCP and said my bid was not correct (pre-- empts go to 10 HCP). I disagreed I had done anything wrong as there was no arrangement with partner but ops left the table most disgruntled. I see it as a judgement, as sometimes I do open light or reduce my HCP by one e.g. Open 1NT with 15, when playing weak NT. Whilst not strictly your issue as i was not psyching, you may be interested to know we all suffer. LOL

[mgoetze]

 etha, on 2016-January-28, 07:30, said:

I thought of another point.
lets say a pair agrees that 3rd in hand bids can be made on anything. Is this a legal agreement or do you have to have a minimum HCP for openers?

In Germany, this counts as a HUM system if you don't promise 8 HCP. Legal at the highest level of league play and pretty much nowhere else.

Quote

If a country has a rule where there is a limit on the HCP then does this become a psyche?

If you do it once, it's a psyche. If you do it multiple times, it becomes an implicit partnership understanding which is subject to system regulations exactly the same way an explicit partnership understanding is.

[Fluffy]

 keithhus, on 2016-January-28, 12:31, said:

I wasn't aware of psyching until I read this posting. I am a beginner but just to let you know, similar issues happen at my level. This week I had 11HCP and 7 D ( void in S). After a little deliberation, I pre-empted and opened 3 D - 4 D made. This was top board; contract being played by ops on all the other tables. My Ops were very upset when they found out I had 11 HCP and said my bid was not correct (pre-- empts go to 10 HCP). I disagreed I had done anything wrong as there was no arrangement with partner but ops left the table most disgruntled. I see it as a judgement, as sometimes I do open light or reduce my HCP by one e.g. Open 1NT with 15, when playing weak NT. Whilst not strictly your issue as i was not psyching, you may be interested to know we all suffer. LOL

This is not a psyche, if anything it would be a deviation, rules differentiate the two, althou I don't eterilly understand why.

I don't know others, but I have no problem with beginners psyching against beginners, in fact, they often do it (just not on purpose). What I am against is experienced players psyching against beginners on a social game. Specially the kind of psyche that will make the beginners feel stupid.

[helene_t]

 keithhus, on 2016-January-28, 12:31, said:

This week I had 11HCP and 7 D ( void in S).

This illustrates one of the problems with restricting psyches. Preempting with 11 points is clearly nor a psyche since it is not a gross misstatement of your shape or strength, but where do you draw the line? Even in a no-psyche environment, you should be allowed to preempt with 11 points. Probably not with 14, though. What about 13? 12?

[keithhus]

 Fluffy, on 2016-January-28, 17:15, said:

This is not a psyche, if anything it would be a deviation, rules differentiate the two, althou I don't eterilly understand why.

I don't know others, but I have no problem with beginners psyching against beginners, in fact, they often do it (just not on purpose). What I am against is experienced players psyching against beginners on a social game. Specially the kind of psyche that will make the beginners feel stupid.

Fluffy/Helene,
Just to clarify, do you think I did the wrong thing. If so I need to apologise this week and bid strictly to guidelines in the future.

[Fluffy]

 keithhus, on 2016-January-31, 10:38, said:

Fluffy/Helene,
Just to clarify, do you think I did the wrong thing. If so I need to apologise this week and bid strictly to guidelines in the future.

You mean opening with 1 point deviation?, no it is perfect, and it doesn't make opponents look like fools.

Openng 1 spade with 3 spades and 2 HCP is what might make opponents look like fools.

[keithhus]

 Fluffy, on 2016-January-31, 16:07, said:

You mean opening with 1 point deviation?, no it is perfect, and it doesn't make opponents look like fools.

Openng 1 spade with 3 spades and 2 HCP is what might make opponents look like fools.

I was a little worried when you mentioned "rules" and " deviation" but thanks for clarification.