[andrei]

IMP, Vul vs not

AQ32
Q
K642
Q863


LHO deals and opens:

(1♣) - double - (1♥) - ??

[steve2005]

 andrei, on 2015-July-23, 11:12, said:

IMP, Vul vs not

AQ32
Q
K642
Q863


LHO deals and opens:

(1♣) - double - (1♥) - ??

Responsive doubles apply hear. so double=4♠ bidding1♠=5

I think 2♥ should be 4+♥

[apollo1201]

Double is usally the anti-psychic to immediately expose responders' trying to move us from our fit.

If responder had passed, I'd have cue bidded to decide between 3NT and 4S.

These spots might still be where we belong but it has become more likely that everyone is on the light side (eg. opener with 11 HCP, long Cs and a H singleton, responder with AJxxx H and out, and partner with a light but good-shaped X).

I would nevertheless cue-bid (H or C depending on partnership conventions, probably C as I "hold" them) but be more cautious about game as we could be on the light side with bad breaks and an 8-card fit maximum as partner shouldn't have a 5 cM (maybe 5 Ds).

Of course if responder is making one oh his jokes, we'll find out very soon.

[rmnka447]

Somebody is stretching as partner has announced approximately an opening bid with the takeout double.

You're looking at 13 HCP but the stiff ♥ Q clearly isn't worth full value. Nonetheless, you have 11 other HCP and 2 QTs. Additionally, you have complementary shortness (to partner's 3+ ♥s and ♣ "shortness") which is positive. So, it would seem right to alert partner to the game possibilities by making a 2 ♣ cue. That will define the ball park of the hand as at least close to game provided partner has an opener.

Especially when Vulnerable at IMPs, you want to aggressively bid games. My concern with a responsive double is if partner bids ♠ and you raise, will partner know whether to carry on to game? After a cue, a ♠ bid by partner, and a raise by you, it will hard for partner to undervalue your hand.

[karlson]

I think 2♠ is enough.

Double shows hearts to me.

[SteveMoe]

I'll go aggressive on this hand. 2♥ is a GF (Double here shows ♥). 4 cover cards and 6 losers with a guaranteed 8 card fit somewhere gives license. Want partner to know I hold better than what 2♠ shows.

[Mbodell]

For me, X is hearts (usually 4), 2♥ is also hearts (5+ good ones in a good hand), 2♣ is art cue which might be appropriate on some hands of about this strength. But with 4 good spades and this hand I think the bid is 2♠.

[Phil]

There's two styles I've played.

1. Dbl = 4 hearts, 2♥ = 5 hearts, 2♣ is general force and jumps are constructive.

2. Dbl = all hands with hearts, all jumps are blocking and 2♣ = inv+ with ♦ and 2♥ = inv + with ♠.

Here I would bid 2♣ under the first scheme and 2♥ under the 2nd.

[kenberg]

The above responses make it clear that confusion is possible unless there has been prior discussion. So new?

Recently my lho opened a minor, partner doubled, rho bid 1S, I said a silent prayer and doubled on my strong four card spade holding. I was relieved to hear lho ask my partner for the meaning and hear partner reply that it showed spades. It was all he needed to hear to bid 3NT making. So I think, on this hand after (1H), a double shows hearts. But I know from experience that not everyone thinks that way.

Since I have not discussed with anyone whether 2H over (1H) shows five or is a general cue, I still have a problem . Nonetheless, I bid 2H. If partner only has to figure whether I have one or five, he is supposed to get this right. I'm not so sure that it is an absolute gf, but it's a good hand. I, and I am supposing this applies with many posters on the I/A forum, have not had detailed discussions with my partner du jour. I expect to have a chance to bid again, please not three passes, and I expect to give partner a clear enough picture next time around. If he bids 2S I raise to 4, if he bids 2NT I bid 3S. My thinking with 3S is he may have four but be uncertain about what i am doing, and my 3S should clarify this.

Obviously it is best if we have discussed this. It is also best if i lose some weight, and I really need to get out and mow the grass. Life goes on with its imperfections.


I bid 2H, I expect it to work out.

[nige1]

 andrei, on 2015-July-23, 11:12, said:

IMP, Vul vs no ♠ A Q 3 2 ♥ Q ♦ K 6 4 2 ♣ Q 8 6 3
LHO deals and opens:
(1♣) - double - (1♥) - ??

I rank

• 2♣ = ART. GF. Better ♣ than ♥.
• 2♥ = ART. GF. But perhaps clearer than 2♣.
• 4♠ = NAT. Committal but might avoid ambiguity.
• 3N = NAT. Might make.
• Double. Only if you agree this to be T/O. (Without agreement, Double would normally show 4+ ♥s. With 5+ ♥s, you can double and "rebid" ♥).

[aguahombre]

2♠ See tagline, below.

-2H shows hearts
-Double is not responsive. Responsive doubles apply when the opponents have shown and raised the suit doubled.
-2C is like a responsive cue, but should show power without 4 Spades or five Diamonds.
-double shows 4 hearts

The above are my opinion of standard common sense advances after partner doubles and righty bids a new suit; they are what my partner would show and do. If someone wants to make up meanings other than those, they should warn partner before trying them.

[WesleyC]

As usual there isn't a right or wrong answer and given the variety of suggestions this is clearly an auction worth more discussion!

My thoughts on the standard meanings of each advance are:

X = Either a) showing hearts or b) responsive depending on your agreements. (I prefer responsive at the 1 & 2 level, showing the suit at 3 level and higher).
1S = 4+S, doesn't promise much in terms of values.
2C = Cuebid, any invitational or better hand without clear direction.
2D = (4)5+D, although a decent suit if only 4D, competitive values.
2H = Natural, showing a good 5+ card heart suit.
2S/3D = Natural, usually a 5+c suit and some values, but less than a serious invitation.

Vulnerable at IMPs i'm not stopping short of game on this hand. This makes 2C the only sensible choice, planning to raise partner to game if partner shows 4S and otherwise offer 3NT as an alternative.

[1eyedjack]

 WesleyC, on 2015-July-26, 00:52, said:

X = Either a) showing hearts or b) responsive depending on your agreements and experience

FYP

Responsive double may be gaining popularity on BBO because of the prevalence of tourneys that ban psychs. But among experienced players in the real world it is a tiny proportion and if you suggest it with a new but experienced partner he will wonder about your own experience.

Another reason why banning psychs on BBO tourneys is a bad idea.

I have long preferred transfer jump responses to takeout doubles provided that a 2-level cue of opponent's suit is still available. So I might bid 2H on this hand to show 4+ Spades and at least the values for a non-forcing 2S bid. My next call if partner bids 2S (and no other bidding) is the crunch. A variety of options appeal. Maybe 2C (tfr to D) followed by 2S. This hand is not a particularly good advert for transfer jump responses, but I only mention it because I am surprised that they get so little oxygen.

[kenberg]

I think I change my vote from 2H to 2C. There are two ways of going at this:
1. What do I do with a casual partner?
2. What agreement do I make with a regular partner?

In both cases I now go with 2C. In case of a casual partner this surely (?) will not be misunderstood and with a regualr partner I think having 2H show five is a very good idea.

As mentioned before, I favor having (1m)-X-(1M)-X show cards in M. It's not just that people psych, it is a descriptive call even when 1M is a completely standard bid.

I don't think 2C is totally game forcing.We still need to see how the hands fit, we need to see if NT is playable if partner has only three spades, and so on. And I think I might bid 2C with a little less. For example, if we are to play in NT that heart Q might be helpful. I would probably bid 2C if it were the heart deuce.

Anyway, I will speak to regular partner about bidding 2H to show five.It's broadly consistent with (1C)-Pass-(1H)-2H as natural. Different situation, but the same general idea.

[WesleyC]

 1eyedjack, on 2015-July-26, 01:34, said:

Responsive double may be gaining popularity on BBO because of the prevalence of tourneys that ban psychs. But among experienced players in the real world it is a tiny proportion and if you suggest it with a new but experienced partner he will wonder about your own experience.

I've switched to responsive doubles (at the 1 & 2 levels) a couple of years ago based on the advice of international players with far more experienced than myself. They offered 2 main reasons:

1) Psyches in low level auctions like this aren't very damaging to the opponents, but are dangerous and as a result they're extremely rare. With the 2H bid already available to suggest hearts and expose the psyche, you don't also need to use double to show the same hands.

2) Takeout doubles (especially of a 1C/1D openings) have become mandatory on most hands with 13+ HCP and support for the majors. Unusual hand-shapes like 3433 or 4423 that are now being included within the range of doubling hands, can be tricky to untangle using standard methods so it's advantageous to use an advance in a new minor as promising at least a 5c suit and to use a responsive double to take up some of the slack.

Obviously once to get to the 3 level and above, these ideas start to break down. Partner's double of a high level opening bid is more likely to have textbook shape and an opponent with a known big fit has more scope to mess around with a new suit psyche. In these circumstances it's definitely more valuable to play the double as 'penalty'.

The ideas of using transfer jump responses to advance a t/o double is certainly worth considering, however natural bids by responder do have the advantage of keeping the opening hand on lead so i'm not completely convinced.

[kenberg]

If I were to use a fourth hand double artificially after (1C)-X-(1H) I think that I would consider using it to show a strong three card spade holding plus a diamond suit. For example, in the given hand change the spade 3 to a diamond 3. Quite possibly we can make 4S on a 4-3 fit. Or ,maybe we belong in 5D. Or maybe 3NT. But if I show three decent spades plus a diamond suit, we are on our way to finding out.

But I still like the X to show hearts. Imagine the spade and heart holdings in the original hand reversed. I am not not sure where the contract belongs, but if I start by doubling 1H to show hearts, how bad can it be? Partner knows I have hearts and knows I have some values, he can provisionally guess that I am not loaded in spades and I will make that definite later. It seems to me that we are off to a decent start.

My general philosophy is that if I can see a good argument for an artificial use and a good argument for a natural use, I go with natural. Easier on the brain. I play some on BBO with a person who leans toward the artificial We have some exciting auctions!

[1eyedjack]

 WesleyC, on 2015-July-26, 07:05, said:

1) Psyches in low level auctions like this aren't very damaging to the opponents, but are dangerous and as a result they're extremely rare.

Their rarety may be a function of the defence employed against them. If your opponents are playing responsive doubles it increases the efficacy of the psych.

 WesleyC, on 2015-July-26, 07:05, said:

The ideas of using transfer jump responses to advance a t/o double is certainly worth considering, however natural bids by responder do have the advantage of keeping the opening hand on lead so i'm not completely convinced.

Doubler is only expected to accept the transfer with a minimum double. Otherwise the position of declarer is still up for grabs. Likewise the contract is significantly likely to be wrong-sided when advancer has extras and NOT playing transfers, as he will often start with a nebulous cue bid, and doubler ends up bidding the trump suit first anyway. It is a point, though.

[KurtGodel]

I thought it was standard to play that x shows 4 hearts and 2♥ shows 5+. We can't bid 2♠ as we could bid that with just an eight count with five spades. So that leaves us with the strong option of 2♣. I don't play that as GF, just forcing to suit agreement, but even if it were GF I would bid it.

[mikeh]

I am quite open to the idea that at the highest level nobody bothers with the high-risk 'baby' psyche of 1M over the takeout double. However, unless one is playing at those levels, I suggest that one ought to be aware that these calls happen. Even when they don't...when the 1M is natural, with opener being very short...it can pay to differentiate the advancing hand's holding.

I confess that I was surprised, despite years of posting here, at the disparate views on how one deals with this sequence.

Responsive doubles have not been the standard way of bidding here(in NA, anyway), tho I can see the merit of using them, despite what I wrote above, and if one has made that agreement, then it significantly impacts the structure I propose.

Here is what I have played for many years, including with some very experienced players, with wide national and international experience:

over the 1♥:

double: 4+ hearts, and values. I expect to beat 1♥ even if responder has hearts. So not just any 4 card suit, but some values as well.

2♥: natural, 5+, fairly weak hand, not the least invitational, too weak on the side to double 1♥. A decent suit (Q109xx would do).

1♠: 4+, less than constructive, so tops out at a mediocre 8 count.

1N: 8-10, with clubs stopped, doesn't need a heart stop

2♣: cue-bid. All invitational or gf hands other than a hand with hearts (would double and then bid) or a hand inviting in notrump (would bid 2N) or a hand that simply wants to bid game now.

2♦: constructive and natural

2♠: constructive, 4+


and so on.

[kenberg]

 mikeh, on 2015-July-27, 10:37, said:

I am quite open to the idea that at the highest level nobody bothers with the high-risk 'baby' psyche of 1M over the takeout double. However, unless one is playing at those levels, I suggest that one ought to be aware that these calls happen. Even when they don't...when the 1M is natural, with opener being very short...it can pay to differentiate the advancing hand's holding.

I confess that I was surprised, despite years of posting here, at the disparate views on how one deals with this sequence.

Responsive doubles have not been the standard way of bidding here(in NA, anyway), tho I can see the merit of using them, despite what I wrote above, and if one has made that agreement, then it significantly impacts the structure I propose.

Here is what I have played for many years, including with some very experienced players, with wide national and international experience:

over the 1♥:

double: 4+ hearts, and values. I expect to beat 1♥ even if responder has hearts. So not just any 4 card suit, but some values as well.

2♥: natural, 5+, fairly weak hand, not the least invitational, too weak on the side to double 1♥. A decent suit (Q109xx would do).

1♠: 4+, less than constructive, so tops out at a mediocre 8 count.

1N: 8-10, with clubs stopped, doesn't need a heart stop

2♣: cue-bid. All invitational or gf hands other than a hand with hearts (would double and then bid) or a hand inviting in notrump (would bid 2N) or a hand that simply wants to bid game now.

2♦: constructive and natural

2♠: constructive, 4+


and so on.

I like this structure a lot. I had not previously thought of using 2H to show five hearts, but i argee that it should, and even after that I had not thought of it as being (rather sharply) limited. I like that also.


A word about "I confess that I was surprised, despite years of posting here, at the disparate views on how one deals with this sequence.".
I understand this, but as the song says "You just ain't been around".

I think my self rating of "advanced" is accurate. I have something over 2400 master points (yes I know they have little meaning), I have scored reasonably well in some regional events that do not have masterpoint limits. No one would mistake me for an expert, but I think advanced is right. I used to play a lot more than I do now. I play with a lot of folks with whom I have very few agreements.
The discussions are opften exhausting . I used to pay with a woman, now deceased, who had many eccentric ideas. I tried to remember them but mostly I hoped that they didn't come up, and mostly they didn't.

This I/A Forum is just right for me, as these thoughts about the meaning of 2H demonstrates. Lot's of us enjoy a decent game but never get around to discussing situations that, while not entirely remote, ore pretty rare.


Anyway, I happily read your thoughts. But, and you can trust me on this, the idea of playing the double of 1H as showing hearts is by no means universally accepted.

I also play with International Experts. It says so right on their BBO profiles.