[Kungsgeten]

The weak opening systems (where most openings shows (7)8--11(12) hcp) I've seen seems to play either an unlimited forcing pass, starting at 13+ hcp, or a limited catch-all 1C opening (like Magic Diamond where 1C is 12--16 unbal or 15--17 NT). What do you think is the benefits/drawbacks of one method vs another, just considering how 12/13+ hands is handled?

[helene_t]

I have very limited experience with this but it seems wrong to me to play pass as 12+. Too vulnerable to preemption.

[steve2005]

Forcing pass not allowed in ACBL.
from theory know very convenient with 16+ and 1♦ or higher as your FERT bid.
also allows 1♣ as your neg response and 1♦ and above as transfers.
Very convenient
and allows 1♣ as your nebulous bid which is known to be better than 1♦ or at least that's what big 1♦ people say.
not allowed here so kinda irrelevant

[Kungsgeten]

The main reason for asking is that, from what I've read, people seem to praise the 13+ pass systems, but despise the limited 1C catch-all. To me the 13+ pass seems much harder to handle. That being said I do agree that the catch-all 1C is bad, but I can not see why a 13+ pass would be better.

[shevek]

I've played 13+ pass, various 0-7 ferts, others 8-12 for many years, off and on.
See other thread for our preferred current method.

Haven't play or looked at fertless weak opening methods.

Seems to me that magic diamond pass = 0-11 bal or 0-7 unb has little value.
Having a bid (or pass) that shows 0-7 is a great boon to responder, who can cool his heels.

Why is it good to open 1♥ with a 3532 8-count but not 3442 say. Meaningless distinction.
The 8-12 openings need to be descriptive and constructive.
1♥ - 2♥/3♥ is a good sequence, whether the hand is ours or theirs, bal or not.

Another way to make a fertless method is something we might call light opening Blue Club or similar.
1♣ = 13+ any, 1♦/♥/♠ = 8-12 & 4+ suits. 1NT as you wish ...

If you convert that to a fert system by swapping pass & 1♣, do you gain or lose anything?
So pass = 13+, 1♣ = 0-7 any.
Well, 1♣ fert does no good and could very occasionally come unstuck.
Starting strong hands a step lower has real value. For instance you can split the negative, so
pass ; 1♣ = 0-6, 1♦ = 6-10, others 11+ GF.
This rates to gain, especially if you play symmetric relay.

[Kungsgeten]

shevek: The thread was really meant to discuss the pass opening vs a catch-all 1C, and not really the whole system. A great thing about a 13+ pass is ofcourse that you gain an extra step when second hand passes. A bad thing (I guess) is that opener is unlimited and because of this has a very wide range of hands. When can opener act if the opponents interfere? I guess this depends on agreements, but at least with 1C being limited (perhaps 12--16) responder knows that opener hasn't got a monster hand.

As a side note: Magic Diamond is actually an adapted version of Carotti (a forci ng pass system) because Carotti couldn't be played due to system regulations. Carotti uses the following opening bids:

Pass = Any 12--16 unbal or 15--17 NT
1C = 8--11 NT or any 17+
1D = Any 0--7
1M = 8--11, 4+ major may be canapé. Not 4333/4432.
1NT = 12--14
2m = 8--11, 5+ minor, no major, unbal
2HS = Two-suiters, 8--11
2N = Two-suiter, 8--11

I've played a fertless forcing pass system where pass was two-way: 0--7 or 17+. It used a catch-all 1C, 1red as transfer openings (Moscito style) and 1S as 8--11 NT.

[all loomis]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-June-17, 07:21, said:

The weak opening systems (where most openings shows (7)8--11(12) hcp) I've seen seems to play either an unlimited forcing pass, starting at 13+ hcp, or a limited catch-all 1C opening (like Magic Diamond where 1C is 12--16 unbal or 15--17 NT). What do you think is the benefits/drawbacks of one method vs another, just considering how 12/13+ hands is handled?

fp had a brief period of popularity in the 1980's, in sydney. very quickly became evident that opps were benefited more than users, as they could bid natural shape hands, up to 15 points, and rely on fp to give them a delayed second bid with 16+, which can't be good for fp.
coping with the light openings required some thought, but even there starting off with more high cards tended to work out better for opps.
there is only so much information you can squeeze out of the bid sequence, and telling the opps how to defend is not a good idea either. there is room for science, but keep an idea on the prize of getting to the right spot while telling as little as possible.

[shevek]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-June-19, 14:57, said:

shevek: The thread was really meant to discuss the pass opening vs a catch-all 1C, and not really the whole system. A great thing about a 13+ pass is ofcourse that you gain an extra step when second hand passes. A bad thing (I guess) is that opener is unlimited and because of this has a very wide range of hands. When can opener act if the opponents interfere? I guess this depends on agreements, but at least with 1C being limited (perhaps 12--16) responder knows that opener hasn't got a monster hand.

As a side note: Magic Diamond is actually an adapted version of Carotti (a forci ng pass system) because Carotti couldn't be played due to system regulations. Carotti uses the following opening bids:

Pass = Any 12--16 unbal or 15--17 NT
1C = 8--11 NT or any 17+
1D = Any 0--7
1M = 8--11, 4+ major may be canapé. Not 4333/4432.
1NT = 12--14
2m = 8--11, 5+ minor, no major, unbal
2HS = Two-suiters, 8--11
2N = Two-suiter, 8--11

I've played a fertless forcing pass system where pass was two-way: 0--7 or 17+. It used a catch-all 1C, 1red as transfer openings (Moscito style) and 1S as 8--11 NT.

Well, I've never played a method with multi-strength bids. So when playing Multi 2♦ for instance, I am keen on the "weak only" style, so not including big balanced, etc.
How does responder cater for 1♣ as 8-11 bal, or 17+ any? Seems fraught with danger plus loss of space, whether they bid or not.
The main thrust with FP is describing with the 45% 8-12 hands. How you handle 0-7 & 13+ is collateral.
Need to move those 8-11 bal hands somewhere useful. Unfortunately, having 2 bids for strongish hands takes away that option.

[Kungsgeten]

shevek, on 2015-June-29, 19:16, said:

How does responder cater for 1♣ as 8-11 bal, or 17+ any?

This is basically a Swedish Club, but with an even weaker balanced range. The most basic structure is that responder treats 1♣ as a strong club, and opener's rebid will clarify. Carrotti used the following responses:

1C---
1D = 0--7 any, non-forcing.
1M = F1. 4+ suit, GF vs strong hand, so about 8+
1N = Non-forcing, no major, about 8-13.
2m = 5+ suit, non forcing, about 8-13.
2H = INV+ with both minors, so about 14+
2S = Puppet to 2NT. Balanced GF or GF single-suited minor.
2N = INV
3m = INV
3HS = "Preemptive INV", 7-card suit
3N = About 16-19
4CD = SAT
4HS = Chance

After the negative 1D the weak NT hand may pass or bid a 3+ major (which may also be strong). They play 2♣ rebid as ART GF (balanced or unbal with major) and 2♦ as F1 with minors (may be GF if no major). Jump to 2M is limited and shows a 3 card suit and a 6+ minor. 2NT is 20+ hcp and a 6+ minor. 3m is limited with a 6+ minor and usually no 3 card major.

If the system isn't aggressive enough you could switch the balanced ranges of 1♣ and 1NT when non-vul (1NT 8--11, 1♣ 11-14 or 17+).

[etha]

There is another way to avoid this which is to play 1!c = 0-7 or 17+. Now you are pretty much able to distinguish the hands because of the massive difference in strength. You now don't need a fert and your other openers can be moscito style and limited for example with 1!c as for example 8-10 semi balanced or clubs. Opps can't play purely destructive interference.

Strong Clubs by themselves are enough trouble to sort out when interfered with without adding a balanced hand to them if you ask me, I'm always amazed hanlon and co do so well with theirs.

[Kungsgeten]

etha: If 1♣ is 0-7 or 17+ then 1♣ can't also be 8-10 NT or clubs. Also 1♣ as 0-7 or 17+ get you quite high (well, it will be like playing a forcing diamond system, so not too high). I think pass as 0-7 or 17+ is a better option (if legal).

[etha]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-June-30, 06:49, said:

etha: If 1♣ is 0-7 or 17+ then 1♣ can't also be 8-10 NT or clubs. Also 1♣ as 0-7 or 17+ get you quite high (well, it will be like playing a forcing diamond system, so not too high). I think pass as 0-7 or 17+ is a better option (if legal).

yes sorry slip of the pen I meant pass 0-7 or 17+

[Kungsgeten]

etha: Yes as I described in a previous post I've played a two-way pass like that. I think that you need to split the ranges even more though, to me 8-16 seems very wide (and common) so we used a catch-all 1C.

An alternative I'd like to try is the two-level bids showing 8-11, Fantunes style, and the bids at the one level showing 12-16 (1C clubs or balanced, 1NT 8-11).

[etha]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-July-01, 02:58, said:

etha: Yes as I described in a previous post I've played a two-way pass like that. I think that you need to split the ranges even more though, to me 8-16 seems very wide (and common) so we used a catch-all 1C.

An alternative I'd like to try is the two-level bids showing 8-11, Fantunes style, and the bids at the one level showing 12-16 (1C clubs or balanced, 1NT 8-11).

I'm trying 1C 8-10 semi balanced or 8-13 clubs and fantunes style weak 2's with moscito transfers for 1D 1H 1S 14-16 NT

[Kungsgeten]

So, if I understand correctly:

Pass = 0-7 or 17+
1C = 8-10 NT or 8-13 clubs
1D = 4+ hearts, 12-16
1H = 4+ spades, 12-16
1S = 4+ diamonds, 12-16
1NT = 14-16
2C = 6+ clubs, 14-16
2DHS = 5+ suit, 8-11

If so, how do you handle 11-13 NT?

[etha]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-July-01, 17:08, said:

So, if I understand correctly:

Pass = 0-7 or 17+
1C = 8-10 NT or 8-13 clubs
1D = 4+ hearts, 12-16
1H = 4+ spades, 12-16
1S = 4+ diamonds, 12-16
1NT = 14-16
2C = 6+ clubs, 14-16
2DHS = 5+ suit, 8-11

If so, how do you handle 11-13 NT?

for example 11-13 balanced with 4 hearts is in the 1D opener. 1D 1H (game invite relay) 1S (11-13 balanced).
with spades 1H 1S (game invite relay) 2D (11-13 balanced).
with diamonds 1S 2C (game invite relay) 2H (11-13 balanced).

you can have a full symmetric relay over these and mostly declarer is rightsided.
majors are not canapé. 1S denies majors. 1D and 1H can be 4 major and longer minor.

[etha]

Oh you also need the 2C bid in the scheme we are talking about for club hands. I have the opening hands with clubs here but you can probably put them in the 1C opener which was sort of the point of the thread when you started and have 1C = 8-10 semi balanced or 8-16 and clubs. Not sure what hands you want to have in 2C then you might want it to be majors even. Depends how wide a range you want 1C= clubs to be.

[Kungsgeten]

We did the following:

Pass = 0-7 or 17+ (18+ if bal)
1C = Catch-all. 12-16 unbal or 15-17 bal
1DH = Moscito transfer. 8-11, not 4333 nor 4432.
1S = 8-11 balanced, no 5 card major
1NT = 12-14 balanced
2m = 8-11, natural unbal, no major
2M = 8-11, 5-5 major + minor

1S was scary when vul. 1C was pretty bad but usually worked (the opponents should have bid more over this).

[etha]

slightly off topic why do people have a balanced range different from their unbalanced range in the strong club or in this case pass?
It seems to me you want the minimum defensive strength of the hand to be uniform as well as the minimum value of the hand in NT in case of a misfit.