[eagles123]

So I had the pleasure of playing with Cyberyeti in one of the Norfolk clubs last night, which was fun apart from the fact I managed to butcher virtually every board - sorry dude

anyway I thought this was quite an interesting hand, how do people bid this

---

North deals, EW silent throughout. It's MP

how do people bid this?

Thanks

Eagles

[mikeh]

This can't be answered without defining methods.

For example, some pairs could open a weak 2♦ as North. I suspect that treatment would be rare in the UK, and is far from universal in NA.

Some pairs might deem the N hand an opening bid, especially if they play a strong club method. Personally, I would never open 1♦ since I don't give much due to the 3 jacks.

Then S should open 1♠, rather than distort via 2N, even with an attack of matchpointitis

What does N bid? 2♦ seems clear unless it is a form of drury!


Let's assume a basically natural approach:

P 1♠
2♦ ?

I see no way for S to discover that key spade J. To me, S just drives to 6♦.

East may not lead a club. He may lead the Ace. N may be able to guess well on a low club lead. We may lose the first 2 tricks.

I see no plausible means of arriving at any viable slam played by South absent a grotesque 2N opening.

[eagles123]

sorry I didn't mean how should I/we have bid it - I'm asking how people bid it using their own methods

Eagles

[mgoetze]

In practice, probably 2♦-2♠; 3♦-5♦. Hm, I should probably discuss with my partner whether 4♦ by responder would be game-invitational or ace-asking...

In theory, it could go

2♦-2♥;
2♠*-2NT;
3♣**-4♦;
4NT***-6♦

* No Shortness
** Maximum
*** 2 Keycards, no Queen.

[rmnka447]

Since we play Flannery, a weak 2 ♦ is unavailable as a bid. Also, we play old fashioned 2/1 where if responder rebids his suit it's passable.

So after P-P-1 ♠-P- ?

2 ♦ Since the hand has already passed, a better description than a forcing NT. With worst ♦ and 9-11, I think a forcing NT is right.

4 ♦ Minorwood. 3 ♦ would have been a raise with extras.

4 NT 2 keys without the Q.

6 ♦

[suokko]

Favorable this could fit to 3♦ opening but no 2♦ weak option for me. After figuring that 3 side jacks is not an opening hand biding might go.

P-1♠;
2♦-2♥:
3♥-3NT

2♦: "weak two"
2♥: inv+ relay
3♥: Max without shortness
3NT: Not looking for possible wrong sided perfect fit slam without shortness and only 27-29 hcp.

[Cyberyeti]

We agreed beforehand to our opening bids being pretty light, and as this was rule of 19 I opened it 1. Our weak 2 would have been 5-9 and I seriously considered it, but as we'd failed to discuss our rebids over 2N opposite a weak 2 (oops) I opted to open 1.

[mike777]

p=1s
2d then hard to stop short of 6d


perhaps the key is not to pass and then bid 2d on a junky hand so pard knows you got real stuff here.


if you open 1d you are never going to stop short of some slam.

[PLimprove]

2D-PASS-4D-PASS-5D-PASS

[GrahamJson]

I'm afraid to say that I have come across at least one BBO player who would find this easy and would probably rebid 6NT as south, almost as if he could see all four hands.

[Cyberyeti]

Clearly the best contract is 6♠/6N by S, is it possible to get there with confidence ?

Not if S does the asking, as it's a terrible contract opposite ♠xx rather than Jx, the odds of the spades behaving are lower than those of a non low club lead or the Q being right.

Can N ask on his horrible collection and read the answers ?

With my normal partner we'd start:

1♦-2♠(single suited rock crusher or Hxxx♦ HHxxx♠ H=AKQ and 12+)

Now there is no point in keycarding in diamonds from N's pov as he will know S has Qxxx(x) after his next bid and he can keycard in spades. The problem is telling the difference between S's actual hand and KQxxx, Ax, QJxx, AK where a heart lead dooms all the slams and you need spades 3-3 to make 6♠/6N on a non heart. I don't think there's room for S to show both club honours after 1♦-2♠-3♦ and then check keycards.

So this goes into the "too difficult for a natural system" file for me.

[helene_t]

mikeh, on 2015-February-12, 11:09, said:

For example, some pairs could open a weak 2♦ as North. I suspect that treatment would be rare in the UK

Weak 2♦ is quite normal in the UK.

With Gosh13 it might go
3♦-3♠
4♠-4NT
5♦-6♠

With Shogi it might go
2♣*-2♠ // *weak with diamonds, or strong
2NT*-4NT** // *maximum, no fit **RKC diamonds
5♥-6♦

[fourdad]

2♦-2NT (asking feature)-3♦(denying feature)-5♦

[Cyberyeti]

fourdad, on 2015-February-13, 05:41, said:

2♦-2NT (asking feature)-3♦(denying feature)-5♦

Disastrous at MPs, at least bid 3N and get a trivial 430 (460 on a club lead) regardless of partner's spade holding and how the spades behave rather than 400/420.

[Tramticket]

Playing Acol with a multi I pass as North (nowhere near a 1D bid for me, 3D might be possible if I had a singleton - but not here).
Then:
Pass, 1S
2D, 4D
5D, 6D (6NT? / Pass?)


Inelegant and the contract is wrong-sided. I would consider passing 5D, but that will score badly compared with those in 3NT, so I would probably reject that.

I would consider bidding 6NT, influenced by pairs scoring (but if 6D is making it will score well) and worry about the clubs, but I suspect I am being influenced by having seen the opposition hands. I'm pretty sure that we are playing in 6D by North.

[Valardent]

In the system I play, it goes very smoothly :

P P 1♠ P
P 2♣* P 3♦** *(5/6♦ 9-11 hcp) **fit GF
P 4♦ P 6♦

[aguahombre]

Via combination of unpopular methods which we happen to use, we would accidentally push the board with Helene, right-siding 6D.

P*-1S *Opening 2♦ is taken for something else.
1NT**-3D **NT still forcing by passed hand, planning to rebid 3♦ (10-12 good 6 bagger).
5D-6D.

Since the 3D Jump-shift might on occasion be made on a mere fragment, the implication of the 5D bid is strong enough for Opener to bid 6.

[razorsharp]

Very interesting! I would open a weak 2D N and S responds 2NT, fetching a JOgust rebid of 3S = 6-card D, great weak 2. Then S bids 4C RKB(D) then 6D.
Rule: 4C by responder directly or on next round is RKB for 2 or 3 level preemptor's suit. (Over 3-opener I play a modified downward RKB)
If 2D is systemically Micro-Polynesian, etc. I PASS then 2D/1S, Now South rebids 4NT RKB(D)

[razorsharp]

Sorry, I meant to suggest P - 1S - 2D - 4D Wormwood, not 4NT RKB

[razorsharp]

Sorry, I meant to suggest P - 1S - 2D - 4D Wormwood, not 4NT RKB