[1eyedjack]

---

IMP, best hand South, robodupe, pro GIB 32

I think that I object to the 3C bid. According to the description, South may yet have as few as 3 Clubs for the 2H bid (I object to that as well, but ...). What would 2N by North have meant over 2H, and in what respects is this North deficient? Gloss over the possibility of responding 1D - that has been done to death in other threads.

[Bbradley62]

Jack's questions/comments, and mine.

I think that I object to the 3C bid. Me too.
According to the description, South may yet have as few as 3 Clubs for the 2H bid (I object to that as well, but ...). How would South bid with xxx, AKxx, xxx, AQx?
What would 2N by North have meant over 2H, and in what respects is this North deficient? North's hand should be the textbook 2N rebid.
Gloss over the possibility of responding 1D - that has been done to death in other threads. How about responding NT, denying 4M and 5m?

[1eyedjack]

Bbradley62, on 2015-January-26, 15:16, said:

According to the description, South may yet have as few as 3 Clubs for the 2H bid (I object to that as well, but ...). How would South bid with xxx, AKxx, xxx, AQx?

As things currently stand with GIB I would rebid 2H, for 2 reasons: (1) it does not promise Clubs and (2) I never rebid 2N opposite GIB (after 1m-2m) because of ambiguity over when it will be passed (GIB will routinely pass with a full-blooded invite). That said, if I think about it at the time I might make an exception with this hand.

I have no strong objection to rebidding 2N with this hand. It could not be more balanced. Responder will not have 4H (or if he may he will introduce them). He has enough for an inverted raise and his values don't appear to be in Clubs or Hearts. If responder is unbalanced this should yet come to light, but if he is balanced then we want to be in NT.

Bbradley62, on 2015-January-26, 15:16, said:

Gloss over the possibility of responding 1D - that has been done to death in other threads. How about responding NT, denying 4M and 5m?

No strong opinion, except that the 1D and 1N responses should be more expressly defined and mutually exclusive. Either would be preferable to 2C on this hand.

[georgi]

2NT over

1m - 2m
2x - 2NT is currently GF promising the rest stoppers, suggesting 3NT as final contract from responder's side.

Similarly followup as 2♥/2♠ promising stopper in this suit and GF values.

Will be reviewed again for improvement.

Will write about further changes in same topic.

[Bbradley62]

1eyedjack, on 2015-January-26, 23:45, said:

Bbradley62, on 2015-January-26, 15:16, said:

Jack's questions/comments, and mine.

I think that I object to the 3C bid. Me too.
According to the description, South may yet have as few as 3 Clubs for the 2H bid (I object to that as well, but ...). How would South bid with xxx, AKxx, xxx, AQx?

As things currently stand with GIB I would rebid 2H, for 2 reasons: (1) it does not promise Clubs and (2) I never rebid 2N opposite GIB (after 1m-2m) because of ambiguity over when it will be passed (GIB will routinely pass with a full-blooded invite). That said, if I think about it at the time I might make an exception with this hand.

I have no strong objection to rebidding 2N with this hand. It could not be more balanced. Responder will not have 4H (or if he may he will introduce them). He has enough for an inverted raise and his values don't appear to be in Clubs or Hearts. If responder is unbalanced this should yet come to light, but if he is balanced then we want to be in NT.

The 2♥ rebid by opener has nothing to do with the fact that opener has denied holding four heart; it does not show 4 hearts (which would presumably for the purpose of suggesting a heart contract), it shows hearts stopped, for the purpose of cooperatively determining whether all suits are stopped before agreeing to play NT. 2♥ would also be correct with xxx, AKx, xxx, AQxx.

[Bbradley62]

georgi, on 2015-January-27, 07:05, said:

2NT over

1m - 2m
2x - 2NT is currently GF promising the rest stoppers, suggesting 3NT as final contract from responder's side.

Similarly followup as 2♥/2♠ promising stopper in this suit and GF values.

Will be reviewed again for improvement.

Will write about further changes in same topic.

Since the inverted minor bid didn't show game-forcing values, and opener's 2-level suit bid did not show any extras, I'd hope that any 2-level rebid by responder would allow for the possibility of stopping in 2N or 3m.

[iandayre]

Bbradley62, on 2015-January-27, 13:17, said:

Since the inverted minor bid didn't show game-forcing values, and opener's 2-level suit bid did not show any extras, I'd hope that any 2-level rebid by responder would allow for the possibility of stopping in 2N or 3m.

I could not agree more. The 2 level rebids by the raiser should be descriptive but not game forcing, although suit calls are unlimited.

And Georgi while you are improving, please have GIB stop making inverted minor raises with 3334 shape.

[georgi]

Next version will allow:

Responder's 2nd level rebid using new suit would be INV+ ( forcing only to 3 of "our" minor ) or 2NT would be INV and could be passed.

Responder's 3rd level rebid will be GF.

Responder will raise and respectively initiate Inverted minor sequence only with lack of honors in two or more of rest aside suits with 4333 or 4m4m32 hand. It doesn't mean stoppers, just Jx / Jxx / Qx or better would let GIB pick 1NT/2NT first, then 2♣/♦.

[1eyedjack]

georgi, on 2015-February-13, 05:58, said:

Next version will allow:

Responder's 2nd level rebid using new suit would be INV+ ( forcing only to 3 of "our" minor ) or 2NT would be INV and could be passed.

Responder's 3rd level rebid will be GF.

Responder will raise and respectively initiate Inverted minor sequence only with lack of honors in two or more of rest aside suits with 4333 or 4m4m32 hand. It doesn't mean stoppers, just Jx / Jxx / Qx or better would let GIB pick 1NT/2NT first, then 2♣/♦.

So the only way to get to play in 2N after inverted raise is by opener rebidding it immediately over the raise?

I suppose that that is one more route than before.

[Bbradley62]

1eyedjack, on 2015-February-13, 11:03, said:

So the only way to get to play in 2N after inverted raise is by opener rebidding it immediately over the raise?

I suppose that that is one more route than before.

Couldn't 1m-2m-2M-2N also end there?

[1eyedjack]

Bbradley62, on 2015-February-13, 12:12, said:

Couldn't 1m-2m-2M-2N also end there?

Apparently not:

georgi, on 2015-February-13, 05:58, said:

Next version will allow:

Responder's 2nd level rebid using new suit would be INV+ ( forcing only to 3 of "our" minor )

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

2nd level rebid using new suit

Quote

2NT would be INV and could be passed.

[georgi]

Ok, some examples

1m - 2m
2y - 2NT -> INV only, auction could stop here

1m - 2m
(*)- 3z -> GF

1m - 2m
2y - 2z -> INV+, but not GF

[lycier]

1eyedjack, on 2015-January-26, 14:09, said:

---

georgi, on 2015-February-13, 13:59, said:

Ok, some examples

1m - 2m
2y - 2NT -> INV only, auction could stop here

1m - 2m
(*)- 3z -> GF

1m - 2m
2y - 2z -> INV+, but not GF

I think rebid-3♣ is signoff after ♣ inverted raise,it looks like fiixed formula without objection,I don't know why there are so many questions.

[georgi]

1♣ - 2♣
(*) - 3♣

and

1♦ - 2♦
(*) - 3♦

are not forcing as they were now.

1m - 2m
(*) - 3z is forcing where "z" is something else than our minor.

[lycier]

georgi, on 2015-February-13, 17:59, said:

1♣ - 2♣
(*) - 3♣

and

1♦ - 2♦
(*) - 3♦

are not forcing as they were now.

1m - 2m
(*) - 3z is forcing where "z" is something else than our minor.

--------------------------------------
1♣ - 2♣
(*) - 3♣

and

1♦ - 2♦
(*) - 3♦
--------------------------------------
are not forcing ,I agree.

--------------------------------------
1m - 2m
(*) - 3z is forcing where "z" is something else than our minor.
-------------------------------------

What's 3z?
3z is splinter with 16hcp+

However there is a special bidding sequence at below:
1♦ - 2♦
3♣=?

3♣ is also a spinter with 16hcp+,it is non-jump splinter.I know many players can't play so,but it is a non-jump splinter in fact.
In the other word,all the new suit at 3-level are splinter with 16hcp by opener after inverted minors raise,IMO.

[georgi]

Sorry if i didn't describe the full sequence and it went unclear.

The main point was when responder's calls are GF.

Opener's rebids are intact as he still supposedly shows some values and stoppers. He could use Splinter to show shortness of course, etc.


But 3z in my upper post was after (*) ( or any rebid by opener ), where the asterisk symbol covers these rebids for easiness.


So an example described fully is :

1♣ - 2♣
2♥ - 3♦ -> GF by responder

while

1♣ - 2♣
2♦ - 2♥ would show only hearts stopper and still INV+. opener could bid 2NT or 3♣ and then responder could proceed with max or pass with min.


For GIB, opener's calls are Splinters once when there is jump, starting from 3♦ and up, but not 3♣ ( which shows just stopper ).

[lycier]

Quote

1♣ - 2♣
2♥ - 3♦ -> GF by responder
1♣ - 2♣
2♦ - 2♥ would show only hearts stopper and still INV+. opener could bid 2NT or 3♣ and then responder could proceed with max or pass with min.

I agree.

Quote

For GIB, opener's calls are Splinters once when there is jump, starting from 3♦ and up, but not 3♣ ( which shows just stopper ).

I disagree,even though I know many players support your views.