[antonylee]

(of course I was the culprit here -- no surprises)

[whereagles]

there is no guilt, only choices.

[Michael000]

As nobody in this thread has trashed this bidding sequence I presume it is based upon some 'thing'. For the benefit of my education could someone please explain to me the (logic / system / conventions) on which the biding on this hand was based?

South ( 21HCP )
S A Q T 9 2
H Q 7
D A Q
C A K 6 3

North ( 7HCP )
S J 8 4
H A 6 4 3
D 7 6 2
C Q T 2

South opens 2C I presume that's not natural and I know it's not an Acol 2C so what does that bid promise and what system is it based on?

North responds 2D which I presume is denying something - what?

South re-bids 2S , I presume that's natural?

North responds 3S, I presume that's natural and north expects South's bid of 2S to be promising 5 spades?

South bids 4C, is that Gerber but Clubs have already been bid!

North responds with 4H which looks like he's taking the 4C bid as Gerber showing 1 ace

South bids 4NT, is that Blackwood, if the 4C was Gerber why would you switch to Blackwood?

I realise I may be exposing my ignorance here but - educate me.

[the hog]

Firstly it has already been pointed out that Nth should open 2NT. Secondly I don't think any serious player who posts here plays Gerber, so 4C was a cue.

By the way Michael you have still not presented me with a credible auction for bidding slam with kxx in the h suit and staying out of it with qjx in the hands I asked you about in the cue bidding thread. Am I correct in assuming you cannot differentiate between the 2 hands?

[mgoetze]

Michael000, on 2014-December-31, 05:43, said:

I realise I may be exposing my ignorance here but - educate me.

Yeah I think everyone else who has participated in this thread had a different take on what the bidding sequence was supposed to show than you, but as the saying goes there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers, so...

I have no idea what an Acol 2♣ is - a strong hand with 6+ clubs? 2♣ in most natural bidding systems is just the strongest opening bid. In Benjamin this would, I believe, be 2♦, and there are very good reasons not to play it that way. (Reverse Benjamin, where 2♣ is the strong opening like it is here, and 2♦ is the second-strongest, is incrementally better, and then you should just drop the 2♦ opening for something more useful, as discussed in other threads.)

2♦ probably denies something, though not everyone has the same set of options. In any case it should be the default answer to 2♣, not denying very much.

2♠ does indeed show 5+ spades, game-forcing.

3♠ confirms the spade fit, showing 3 spades. For some players, it also shows some semblance of points / playing strength, with 4♠ showing 3 spades in an even weaker hand.

4♣ is definitely not Gerber. You should forget this convention ever existed. If advanced players play it all, then it only applies when no trump suit has been found, directly after a NT bid.

Instead, since we have established a trump suit, this is the start of a cuebidding sequence. 4♣ shows a club control, i.e. the King, Ace, a singleton or a void. (This style of cuebidding is dominant today, but in the middle of the previous century most would play it as showing a first-round control, the Ace or a void.)

4♥ similarily shows a heart control and, for most players, denies a diamond control.

4NT is Roman Keycard Blackwood, and 5♣ shows 1 or 4 keycards. Keycards being the 4 Aces and the King of Spades, which is the agreed trump suit. (To confuse you further, some people play it the other way around, with 5♣ showing 0 or 3, and 5♦ showing 1 or 4. The thing to ask an advanced partner is not "do you play Keycard or simple Blackwood", but rather, "do you play 03-14 or 14-30?")

[Michael000]

the hog, on 2014-December-31, 06:34, said:

Firstly it has already been pointed out that Nth should open 2NT. Secondly I don't think any serious player who posts here plays Gerber, so 4C was a cue.

By the way Michael you have still not presented me with a credible auction for bidding slam with kxx in the h suit and staying out of it with qjx in the hands I asked you about in the cue bidding thread. Am I correct in assuming you cannot differentiate between the 2 hands?

Sorry about that. I posted that thread to form a view on whether I should use cue bids and it quickly degenerated into what was and what was not correct Acol bidding and after being accused of being a troll I am giving it a wide berth. In that same vein (to learn) I asked about the bidding rationale of this post. Of course I know there are other systems but I don't know what bids in those systems mean. My humble and much maligned Acol (bengi Acol) would not have got us anywhere near slam with this hand. I was interested to know which elevated and acclaimed system was used here that got to where it should not have been.

[Michael000]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-31, 06:56, said:

2♦ probably denies something, though not everyone has the same set of options. In any case it should be the default answer to 2♣, not denying very much.

2♠ does indeed show 5+ spades, game-forcing.

3♠ confirms the spade fit, showing 3 spades. For some players, it also shows some semblance of points / playing strength, with 4♠ showing 3 spades in an even weaker hand.

4♣ is definitely not Gerber. You should forget this convention ever existed. If advanced players play it all, then it only applies when no trump suit has been found, directly after a NT bid.

Thanks. With 21HCP and a balanced hand, what did north bid that made south believe that a slam was on?

[Stephen Tu]

Michael000, on 2014-December-31, 09:13, said:

Thanks. With 21HCP and a balanced hand, what did north bid that made south believe that a slam was on?

Nothing, really. North was blameless.

Quote

As nobody in this thread has trashed this bidding sequence

I don't think you were reading carefully enough. Everyone was trashing South's sequence. Basically South way overbid the hand, and has to signoff in 4♠ having overbid with 2♣ to begin with. North hasn't shown anything more than A♥ and 3 spades, or K♥ and 3 spades yet. So South still has potential losers in every single suit to worry about. North with 3 cover cards, something like AK♥ and K♠ will make some move over 4♠ so there is no reason for South to go on. And even with that much could still go down in slam on a bad day with North having 3 small clubs, clubs 4-2, and not being able to ruff the last club without losing a trick to the SJ.

You are avoiding the other thread you started, but at least at some point you might want to acknowledge being confused about the strength range of 1h-3h, whether or not you ever want to learn cue bidding.

[Zelandakh]

This is a Benji auction Michael. 2♣ shows an Acol (strong) 2 opening in any suit or a strong, balanced hand (ranges vary according to agreement). 2♦ is a relay asking Opener to clarify their hand type. 2♠ is, as you say, natural showing the Strong 2 in spades. 3♠ is a natural raise that shows slam interest and should, by the book, hold at least 1 ace (but many do not get taught to play it that way any more). 4♣ is a cue bid showing a club control - we are not given the style here as to whether it promises first round control or could also be second. 4♥ is also a cue bid showing a heart control and denying one in diamonds. Then 4NT is Roman Key Card Blackwood (RKCB) - Opener probably did not want to use this until they were sure that the opponents could not cash ♥AK off the top.

[BillPatch]

According to the ACBL Official Encyclopedia 1984 Benjamin has 2 ♣ for the 8+ trick hand and 2 ♦ for the strong two hand. The original poster makes no reference to Benjamin, Benji, or reverse Benjamin, so I think we can presume he is playing an older version of the strong, artificial, strong two common to SA, Acol, and several continental European systems. Playing Benjamin, although two clubs is not an overbid, it is probably a mistake to treat this as a suit hand.,

[Zelandakh]

BillPatch, on 2015-January-08, 19:49, said:

Playing Benjamin, although two clubs is not an overbid, it is probably a mistake to treat this as a suit hand.,

And yet, knowing the BBO Acol Club, I would expect the vast majority of the Benji players there to open this hand 2♣ and rebid 2♠. 5=2=2=4 is generally still seen as an unbalanced shape in the UK. 2♣ strong + 2♦ stronger is Benji (and also SEF and Forum D) while 2♦ strong + 2♣ stronger is Reverse Benji. You can play the stronger call as GF but most do not.