Would you open this 1NT? No special agreements, 15-17 assumed. Does this fall into a "just bridge judgement 1NT" for you?
Upgrade to 1NT, playing 15-17 no special agreements #2 white vs red, 1st seat
#1
Posted 2014-November-10, 06:53
Would you open this 1NT? No special agreements, 15-17 assumed. Does this fall into a "just bridge judgement 1NT" for you?
#2
Posted 2014-November-10, 06:58
#4
Posted 2014-November-10, 07:17
My normal reasons for calling a 14 point hand "14+" are:
- 5 card suit
- lots of 10's and 9's
- AAKK
The only "plus" about this hand that I can see is that it has no jacks. Other than that there are only minuses.
Rik
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#5
Posted 2014-November-10, 08:21
#6
Posted 2014-November-10, 10:04
-- Bertrand Russell
#7
Posted 2014-November-10, 10:32
Quote
- square shape
- it's the minors that are strong
- the majors don't even have "pushers" except for the ♥Q
- no real reason to have the lead come into this hand
- I don't even upgrade 11s into a 12-14 NT with only four controls (unless three of them are AK-fifth and otherwise good)
- Despite what passes as normal these days, it is allowed to have a maximum for your bid
The only benefit I can see of opening 1NT with this hand is you get to play the 5-3 major fit, and you get to hide your hand from partner, who won't notice you don't have 15. [Edit: I see from the other thread that this was online, so they don't even get to hide their hand from partner...]
#8
Posted 2014-November-10, 11:12
#9
Posted 2014-November-10, 11:23
But still, I'd just play along here. No fancy 1NT for me.
#10
Posted 2014-November-10, 12:26
I know it's not a pass but it's still closer.
What is baby oil made of?
#11
Posted 2014-November-10, 21:05
diana_eva, on 2014-November-10, 06:53, said:
Would you open this 1NT? No special agreements, 15-17 assumed. Does this fall into a "just bridge judgement 1NT" for you?
Why on earth would you even consider upgrading this 14 count 4333 to a 1NT opening?
#12
Posted 2014-November-10, 21:41
The other hand had 5 controls and 2 4 card suits, both good news. This hand has only 4 controls, and the difference includes having only Ace. Worst of all, we are 4333, which is a horrible shape for taking tricks. I'd view this as equivalent to a moderate 13 count, and the other as very close to 15.
#13
Posted 2014-November-11, 13:25
what kind of hand responder will bid game with. While few will meet the minimum
qualification it is a decent idea to picture a good balanced 10 count (15-17) say
one ace and 2 kings. If you picture this opposite the proposed hand we can see that
even with something favorable in clubs and the spade ace onside we would still need
to conjure up another trick from somewhere.
Hand upgrades usually involve some extra risk but the risk is worthwhile because of
suit quality etc that creates a higher trick expectation than mere HCP.
In this case it is an especially bad upgrade since we have a rock solid 1c opener and
(probable) 1n rebid with no concerns. To upgrade with these types of hands is primarily
looking for trouble or maybe there is a little person inside that really really wants
to open a lighter NT than 15 17:))))
#14
Posted 2014-November-13, 00:22
#15
Posted 2014-November-13, 03:06
BillPatch, on 2014-November-13, 00:22, said:
I don't know how to evaluate the hand using the 4 C's method, but I have the document showing how Danny Kleinman would evaluate it, with his steps:
1.) 13 + 9(2) + 5(2) = 41 (or a good 13, since 41/13 = 13 R2)
2.) +1 for KQx(x) combination
3.) +2 for AKT (the 10 gets a point each for the Ace and King)
4.) -2 points for 4333 shape
Now add up the adjustments and divide everything by 3. So we get 42/3, or a 'bad' 14 HCP.
I am guessing that they added an extra point because the Ten (assuming it's a 'picture card', otherwise the King?) is accompanied by the Ace. Oddly enough, AKJ is the same as AKT in Kleinman's view. The Jack is worth 2, but this nullifies the +2 for the Ten accompanied by the AK. Also, you lose a point for a suit whose lowest card > 10 , but since the Jack has a King or Ace with it, it gains back that point. In KnR, the Jack replacing the Ten adds 0.25, making the hand worth 13.75 to them.
Maybe we need to make one small change - if the suit is exactly HH10, that suit loses a point?
"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't live long enough to make them all yourself."
"One advantage of bad bidding is that you get practice at playing atrocious contracts."
-Alfred Sheinwold
#16
Posted 2014-November-13, 04:29
come one, is there anyone who would pass this?? (other than playing strong pass or somefink?.. lol)
even I would open 1NT in the right circumstances (e.g. playing a palooka)
#17
Posted 2014-November-13, 18:44
chasetb, on 2014-November-13, 03:06, said:
Maybe we need to make one small change - if the suit is exactly HH10, that suit loses a point?
According to my previous entry which you quoted and were replying to above, the KnR(Also known as the Kaplan and Rubens count and the 4C's count, was (Edited)13.50. I got this from the Goldschmidt site. Where did you get a 13.75 value?
I know that in KnR there is a deduction with HHT for an honor unaccompanied by a spot card. The T is still better placed there than if we switched it with a spade spot, and I think the KnR also would reflects this difference for this change.
I assume in your deduction for HHT you were deducting a Kleinman count computing point, or 1/3 of a hcp.
#18
Posted 2014-November-13, 19:09
whereagles, on 2014-November-13, 04:29, said:
come one, is there anyone who would pass this?? (other than playing strong pass or somefink?.. lol)
even I would open 1NT in the right circumstances (e.g. playing a palooka)
Everyone polled on this forum disagrees with the original bidder's upgrade to a 15-17 NT. What we are evaluating now is differences in hand evaluation methods, possibly to determine if this is worth a 14-16 point NT. (I don't think so.) or to accept a raise after a NT rebid. (I accept.)
#20
Posted 2014-November-14, 02:45
yunling, on 2014-November-13, 19:13, said:
Personally I like a 14-16NT that will downgrade a few 14s as too weak (and similarly put a few unenticing 17s in range). This is one that I'd downgrade.
Nick