[whereagles]

There's a case for 3♠ now to be a stopper ask (instead of stopper show), on grounds of "who cares about minors".

[antonylee]

whereagles, on 2014-November-04, 05:20, said:

There's a case for 3♠ now to be a stopper ask (instead of stopper show), on grounds of "who cares about minors".

When the auction suggests leading one of them, I do.

[nige1]

beatrix45, on 2014-November-04, 00:01, said:

How odd. I used to play with the guys who devised Lebensohl, which, by the way, had nothing to do with Ken Lebensohl who was just another player at the club.[SNIP]

(Slightly off-topic) Please, Beatrix45, enlighten us if you can remember

• The gist of the original version of Lebensohl?
• The names of the people who devised it?
• Why it came to be called Lebensohl?

[mike777]

Lebensohl

First described by George Boehm, incorrectly attributed by him to Ken Lebensold.

Lebensohl has been modified to extend to other situations.

7th edition Encyclopedia of Bridge.
------------------------

Back to this problem. Great problem with answers all over the place. Clearly when it comes to reverse bidding there is no standard accepted bidding at this point after all these decades.

I don't play this style but given the OP I will try 3h, option2 is 4d, option3=3s.
Prefer a style where I can rebid a weakish 3d over 2h and live with those problems.

[antonylee]

mike777, on 2014-November-04, 23:01, said:

I don't play this style but given the OP I will try 3h, option2 is 4d, option3=3s.
Prefer a style where I can rebid a weakish 3d over 2h and live with those problems.

I guess 2N-then-3D is GF then? With the idea being that if opener happens to have extras, supporting him at the 4-level is not an issue? (if your methods allow you to stop in 4N you should be safe with extras opposite extras.) Or am I missing the basic idea?
This actually looks interesting (at least I'm intrigued by my own interpretation of your comment...), can you elaborate more?

[mike777]

antonylee, on 2014-November-05, 01:09, said:

I guess 2N-then-3D is GF then? With the idea being that if opener happens to have extras, supporting him at the 4-level is not an issue? (if your methods allow you to stop in 4N you should be safe with extras opposite extras.) Or am I missing the basic idea?
This actually looks interesting (at least I'm intrigued by my own interpretation of your comment...), can you elaborate more?

no


I would bid a direct 3d over 2h as weakish, granted I might miss a 4-3 heart game here.
3c(4sf) over 2h would be a gf/ but still granted a difficult auction but rare.
2nt would still be art/wk but deny 3+ diamonds. in this case deny majors, deny d, so long clubs very oftenbut wk.

[antonylee]

From the explanation, I guess opener is supposed to rebid 3C most of the time over 2N? What does responder's delayed 3D mean then?

[PhilKing]

One solution is to use the "good" 2NT.

2NT = art and GF. Opener just patterns out over this.
3♣/♦ = weak
3♥♠ max with diamond fit, values in bid suit and weak clubs

The advantage of playing 3♣ direct as weak is when opener has a fit for clubs. This is more important after 1♥-1NT-2♠ where there are two unbid minors. There is one more spare bid:

2♠ = in between hand - you can just play that opener bids naturally after this - 2NT and 3♦ NF, everthing else patterning out and forcing. You can also use the JLall puppet principle here if you want.

[antonylee]

Also very interesting. The loss of a bid to show the good club hand (which is the only cost, right?) is partially offset if you play 1x-3C as invitational, which I do. (This may mean that you can't use the same approach when responding to T/O X though?)

PhilKing, on 2014-November-05, 12:18, said:

You can also use the JLall puppet principle here if you want.

I know what JLall puppet is but don't see how it applies there.

[PhilKing]

antonylee, on 2014-November-05, 13:14, said:

Also very interesting. The loss of a bid to show the good club hand (which is the only cost, right?) is partially offset if you play 1x-3C as invitational, which I do. (This may mean that you can't use the same approach when responding to T/O X though?)

I know what JLall puppet is but don't see how it applies there.

Yes, I play 3♣ direct as invitational. With a club hand still worth a force after a reverse, responder bids a forcing 2NT with the decent club hand.

Whether one wants to use the "good" 2NT after 1M-X-2M is a separate topic. The answer is probably yes, but I don't do so at present.

After 1♦-1NT-2♥-2♠(medium), opener can bid 3♣ as a puppet to 3♦, and use 3♦ as a forcing 46, and you get a few extra sequences after the 3♣ puppet. So one can even stop in 3♥ with a moderate 56 red hand opposite trash. Are you sure you know the JLall puppet?

[antonylee]

Clearly I didn't, I was confused and just thought it was some general principle that applied also to the 1NT-3C puppet (for which JLall also advertised a well-known structure).

[PhilKing]

antonylee, on 2014-November-05, 15:25, said:

Clearly I didn't, I was confused and just thought it was some general principle that applied also to the 1NT-3C puppet (for which JLall also advertised a well-known structure).

OK. Go to this link (this applies to everyone). http://justinlall.co...ood-convention/

[mike777]

antonylee, on 2014-November-05, 11:50, said:

From the explanation, I guess opener is supposed to rebid 3C most of the time over 2N? What does responder's delayed 3D mean then?

1d=1nt
2h=2nt(art/wk)


In this style most of the time over 2nt (art/wk) opener will simply rebid 3d unless they have extras

One system hole is the weak hand with long clubs by responder
3c over 2h would be long clubs and roughly 8-11 on this auction.

3c over 2nt would be natural and forcing 0=4=5=4

[antonylee]

PhilKing, on 2014-November-05, 18:07, said:

OK. Go to this link (this applies to everyone). http://justinlall.co...ood-convention/

I actually knew (and have played) this convention, not from JLall but from Billy Miller who wrote about it in his Bridge Bulletin column some time ago. Never though about using it over reverses (I guess Lebensohl is just... automatic in my mind), but I see how it can make sense there too.

mike777, on 2014-November-05, 18:43, said:

1d=1nt
2h=2nt(art/wk)


In this style most of the time over 2nt (art/wk) opener will simply rebid 3d unless they have extras

One system hole is the weak hand with long clubs by responder
3c over 2h would be long clubs and roughly 8-11 on this auction.

3c over 2nt would be natural and forcing 0=4=5=4

OK, thanks.