[Jinksy]

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3N almost cold, 4H has play but is hard to reach (perhaps not possible after the D cue - still thrashing this part of system out). 5D off three cashers. What went wrong?

(ETA) Actually 1N 11-14 in that position.

[PhilKing]

I wouldn't blame anyone.

[whereagles]

Soft values in the minors hint at 3NT over 3♦.

It's a bit of a guess, of course. But the quacks are probably wasted. 3♠ would be better on something like Axx xx Axxxx AQx.

[Cyberyeti]

Difficult, we might be having a different discussion if the N hand had been x, AKxxx, KQJxx, xx and 3N had gone off on a club lead and spade switch, or S had xxxx, Qx, Axxx, AKx and a spade to the ace and spade return had caused them to cash the first 6.

I don't like the meaning of 3♠, I think without agreeing anything funkier this should show one black suit stop and deny the other (choose which way round) on a "game before slam" basis.

[MickyB]

What methods do you have available for 5H4D(31)s?

[Jinksy]

MickyB, on 2014-September-02, 12:21, said:

What methods do you have available for 5H4D(31)s?

Not much. With slam interest we go via a 2♠ range finder followed by Barony stuff at the three level (treating the 5 card suit as 4). With game interest only you'd just xfer and bid 3N.

[Jinksy]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-September-02, 12:17, said:

Difficult, we might be having a different discussion if the N hand had been x, AKxxx, KQJxx, xx and 3N had gone off on a club lead and spade switch, or S had xxxx, Qx, Axxx, AKx and a spade to the ace and spade return had caused them to cash the first 6.

I don't like the meaning of 3♠, I think without agreeing anything funkier this should show one black suit stop and deny the other (choose which way round) on a "game before slam" basis.

One possible advantage of the current approach (not really intentional, but that I thought after this hand) is that if opener cues below 3N, responder can bid a naturalish 3N to suggest values in his short suits. Game before slam is all very well, but with either black suit unguarded in the balanced hand, I suspect 4H will have higher expectation than 3N even on a 5-2 fit.

[PhilKing]

whereagles, on 2014-September-02, 12:09, said:

Soft values in the minors hint at 3NT over 3♦.

It's a bit of a guess, of course. But the quacks are probably wasted. 3♠ would be better on something like Axx xx Axxxx AQx.

Exactly. It's best to show no diamond support whatsoever, because partner will work out to move when we sign off with:

♠x ♥AKxxx ♦Kxxxx ♣Ax

where seven is on a finesse, or

♠xx ♥ KQJxx ♦KQJxx ♣x

Where 3NT goes down.

[MickyB]

You might have bid -

1N:2D
2H:3D
3S:3N
P

but it's not hard to construct hands where passing with a 5-5 fit works badly.

[Jinksy]

whereagles, on 2014-September-02, 12:09, said:

Soft values in the minors hint at 3NT over 3♦.

It's a bit of a guess, of course. But the quacks are probably wasted. 3♠ would be better on something like Axx xx Axxxx AQx.

I'm not sure I'd open that a weak NT. Give me a T9 in one of the pointies, or even the TC, and I'd almost certainly upgrade. Expecting it for a cue seems far too demanding.

[whereagles]

well, make it Axx xx Axxx AJxx then

[msjennifer]

I feel that the 3 Spade bid is usually made,when playing a weak NT,to show no guard in clubs,no 3 card support for hearts and most likely a hand like, AQxx,Qx,Axx,xxxx.Of course this is what I would have gathered and is open to individual partnership agreements,Personally,looking at 109 of hearts(and not xx) there is a uncertainty in ones mind about whether to bid 3 hearts or 3 NT. personally I would bid 3 NT and never 3Spade.

[Zelandakh]

Would 3NT over 3♠ not show a non-slammy hand with concentrated values in the red suits for this system? Whether South then sits or not that seems like a decent description.

[jgillispie]

Jinksy, on 2014-September-02, 11:55, said:

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3N almost cold, 4H has play but is hard to reach (perhaps not possible after the D cue - still thrashing this part of system out). 5D off three cashers. What went wrong?

(ETA) Actually 1N 11-14 in that position.

IMHO, soft values in clubs are wasted. While the hand has 5[diamonds}, it's now a 10 count after opening the weak NT. I bid 3N/3D. If P has slam interest, he'll cuebid something...

(Of interest, what would 3♥ have shown by you in this auction?)

[Jinksy]

jgillispie, on 2014-September-03, 05:10, said:

(Of interest, what would 3♥ have shown by you in this auction?)

Probably 2-3♥s (given that you didn't superaccept) and probably (♦ - ♥) > 1.

Also denies sufficient strength in the black suits for opener to comfortably rebid 1N.

[gszes]

this hand is seems more like an evaluation problem than a bidding problem.

The south hand should realize that spade Q and club QJ are likely way overvalued in a
diamond contract and instead of raising diamonds should be happy with 3n. The north
hand should realize that p needs to be near the top of their range to give 5d serious play
and bid 4d instead of 5 (it takes about one K more for game in a minor vs (major or nt).

System caused 3n to be missed but overbidding to 5 need to be corrected. Picture the various
hcp combinations p may have and you will quite quickly see that we need a fair amount of
help from p to make 5d.

[001hans]

Considering 5D with a hand with no aces and opposite a 11-14 NT hand is looking for the (near)-perfect South hand: something like Axx, xx, Axxx(x), Axx(x). With just about any other hand 3NT is a better shot. After 3S (showing D-fit) North should propose 3NT, assuming that partner, with a perfect hand for 5D, will convert 3NT to 5D, or bid 4C with Axx, Qx, Axxxx, Axx, implying that he does not exclude slam-possibilities.
HvdH

[akwoo]

What's the form of scoring?

I take 3D to be very mildly suggestive of slam. At MPs, I think South should be bidding 3N over 3D. I think South should have 3 of 6 keycards to cue. (I suppose AKx Qx KQxxx xxx is okay.)

At IMPs, the slam is more valuable and ending up at 5 of a minor is less bad, so I'm not so sure.