[awm]

Pretty much what it says. I rather doubt there's a standard meaning here, so feel free to answer with your preferred agreements.

Please assume 1♣ is "natural" but in a five-card major system (so 3+). If you would change your answer if 1♣ was always 4+, or if 1♣ could be any balanced hand (2+) feel free to mention this too.

[paulg]

We play that it's a strong 4♥ or 4♠ bid.

[PhantomSac]

I have played both natural and 6-6 majors (ok maybe w/r you do it with some kind of pure 6-5 lol). I have heard of good 4M overcall but really hate that (why would I want to tell them whether I had a good 4M overcall? I understand namyats or variants of that since we might well have a slam but when they open I prefer to just preempt them and not worry about slam). FWIW I prefer lots and lots of majors over natural, but I would probably prefer to play natural over 1C with all balanced hand types of systems (not that I would ever have this agreement, it is too uncommon to care enough and risk an accident).

[PhantomSac]

 paulg, on 2014-June-29, 00:47, said:

We play that it's a strong 4♥ or 4♠ bid.

I really think you should rethink that. What is our purpose of wanting to bid 4M with a good hand? Presumably it is to preempt them. When we have a really good hand we are exploiting that they have to guess a lot, they have to double with just points since we might have quite a weak hand, and then they will often be forced to pass (or guess to bid on when it's wrong and they're going for a number). When I have a good hand I love bidding 4M with the plan to rip them if they bid, or make some 790s if they don't. I view it as a logical way to exploit their need to guess at such a high level. Normally we can't do this because we might have a slam, but if partner is a passed hand obviously that is less likely, and if they open the bidding I view it as a huge winner to try and exploit them this way since a slam becomes quite unlikely when one opp has an opening hand. Of course it is possible but it's just really unlikely.

However if you bid 4C showing a good 4M bid, they don't have to X 4M with their random 10 count, or even their 8 count with a stiff in your major. They can just X 4M getting their values off their chest, and then pass it out happily, especially when you have advertised a strong 4M bid. I think you are eliminating the best part of bidding 4M with a good hand for the very infrequent upside of getting to slam.

[1eyedjack]

Gerber

[gwnn]

Undiscussed I'd take it as 65/66 majors* but I think I'd rather play it as natural preemptive. 4m preempts are a nuisance and they should come up a fair bit even if 1C promises 3. If promises 4 I guess we should go back to 3C stop ask for diamonds and 4C as majors.

*-living maybe in coocoo land.

[whereagles]

I used to play it as nat, preemptive. More interesting is

(1m) pass (pass) 2/3/4m

[paulg]

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 00:55, said:

 paulg, on 2014-June-29, 00:47, said:

We play that it's a strong 4♥ or 4♠ bid.

I really think you should rethink that. What is our purpose of wanting to bid 4M with a good hand?

To be honest I don't think it's ever come up and it's just one of our meta-agreements (from bidding over weak twos) that we have not looked at very closely.

[helene_t]

 gwnn, on 2014-June-29, 02:36, said:

*-living maybe in coocoo land.

Hehe, Netherlands is my favorite country but I must admit they have some weird ideas about bidding. Sorta like "if it can be artificial it is artificial".

[whereagles]

^ I know the feeling.

[ahydra]

 whereagles, on 2014-June-30, 01:13, said:

I used to play it as nat, preemptive. More interesting is

(1m) pass (pass) 2/3/4m

Easy:
2m = Michaels
3m = stopper ask (long running suit)
4m = same as the OP's case, which I'd probably also take as PRE, extremely shapely with both majors. (Or more accurately, I wouldn't bid it at all, because my partner doesn't like either of us making undiscussed bids)

ahydra

[kuhchung]

Long clubs or 6-6 majors, two way?

[ArtK78]

(1m) - P - (P) - 2m should be for penalties.

[whereagles]

 ahydra, on 2014-June-30, 04:48, said:

(Or more accurately, I wouldn't bid it at all, because my partner doesn't like either of us making undiscussed bids)

i salute you for the common sense. An approach that many seem to forget

[jallerton]

 paulg, on 2014-June-29, 00:47, said:

We play that it's a strong 4♥ or 4♠ bid.

 PhantomSac, on 2014-June-29, 00:55, said:

I really think you should rethink that. What is our purpose of wanting to bid 4M with a good hand? Presumably it is to preempt them. When we have a really good hand we are exploiting that they have to guess a lot, they have to double with just points since we might have quite a weak hand, and then they will often be forced to pass (or guess to bid on when it's wrong and they're going for a number). When I have a good hand I love bidding 4M with the plan to rip them if they bid, or make some 790s if they don't. I view it as a logical way to exploit their need to guess at such a high level. Normally we can't do this because we might have a slam, but if partner is a passed hand obviously that is less likely, and if they open the bidding I view it as a huge winner to try and exploit them this way since a slam becomes quite unlikely when one opp has an opening hand. Of course it is possible but it's just really unlikely.

However if you bid 4C showing a good 4M bid, they don't have to X 4M with their random 10 count, or even their 8 count with a stiff in your major. They can just X 4M getting their values off their chest, and then pass it out happily, especially when you have advertised a strong 4M bid. I think you are eliminating the best part of bidding 4M with a good hand for the very infrequent upside of getting to slam.

I think you're right that it pays to overcall 4M on a wide range of hands. However, there must come a point where a hand with a long major has too much playing strength to overcall 4M. Whatever hands are above your cut-off point, I'd prefer to describe then on the first round with a double jump cue bid than start with a take-out double. Yes, when reserved for seriously powerful hands this meaning for (1♣)-4♣ will not come up very often, but nor do the other suggested meanings. With 6-6 in the majors, not too much can go wrong if you start with a Michaels cue bid (or whatever you play to show a 2-suiter) and then bid to an appropriate level on the next round.

[campboy]

Maybe it should show spades and diamonds, if you don't have another way to do that.

[beatrix45]

This has to be either a preemptive bid or a picture bid. I can't think of any real use for a picture bid over an auction that starts 1♣ - P - ?. That sorta leaves its best use as preemptive. That, in turn, depends on what partner might have for his/her one ♣ opener. Playing SAYC or 2/1 my response depends a little on vulnerability, but figures to be six or seven ♣ to the AQ with a singleton. See the Law of Total Tricks as a reference.

[1eyedjack]

 beatrix45, on 2014-July-02, 00:44, said:

This has to be either a preemptive bid or a picture bid. I can't think of any real use for a picture bid over an auction that starts 1♣ - P - ?. That sorta leaves its best use as preemptive. That, in turn, depends on what partner might have for his/her one ♣ opener. Playing SAYC or 2/1 my response depends a little on vulnerability, but figures to be six or seven ♣ to the AQ with a singleton. See the Law of Total Tricks as a reference.

You have the auction wrong. RHO opened 1C

[gwnn]

Opponents opened 1C, you bid 4c.

[aguahombre]

My bride votes for ♠/♦...the only two suited array we can't show another way.

Well, almost...someone will surely recommend that we could bid one suit and then the other