[jfaria]

U got:

♠AQJxxx

♥xxx

♦AQx

♣x

And watch 1♦ from partner x, wrong or write decided to xx 2♣ x from partner pass

What do you bid and why.

Would like to know if my choice has any followers

JF

[helene_t]

We need to know what the redouble shows. Normally it shows a strong hand that can't make any forcing bid, i.e. no biddable suit that could be bid at the 1-level, and some interest in defending. Opener's double would be penalty, then, meaning that assuming that you have some balanced non-fitting hand, opener wants to defend.

This is obviously not the case here so you must have different agreements. So I wouldn't know if 2♠ would be forcing for you. Probably 3♠ is forcing, though. So that's what I bid.

[whereagles]

Making a game here is definitely not "iffy" at all, so we should look for one rather than embarking on what might be a difficult defense.

3♠ is the obvious bid. If pard can't raise this and bids 3NT, we're fine with it.

[jfaria]

helene_t, on 2014-June-18, 02:46, said:

We need to know what the redouble shows. Normally it shows a strong hand that can't make any forcing bid, i.e. no biddable suit that could be bid at the 1-level, and some interest in defending. Opener's double would be penalty, then, meaning that assuming that you have some balanced non-fitting hand, opener wants to defend.

This is obviously not the case here so you must have different agreements. So I wouldn't know if 2♠ would be forcing for you. Probably 3♠ is forcing, though. So that's what I bid.

I was playing with a casual partner, no deep agreements. Chose xx instead of 1♠ thinking it would be easier to create forcing situations in the future.
As for any number of♠ being forcing now, I have my view but would like to know yours

[Fluffy]

if partner is old fashioned and I have to redouble becuase 1 spade is not forcing I will rebid 3♠. Actually I would had risked 1♠.

[helene_t]

jfaria, on 2014-June-18, 05:16, said:

I was playing with a casual partner, no deep agreements. Chose xx instead of 1♠ thinking it would be easier to create forcing situations in the future.
As for any number of♠ being forcing now, I have my view but would like to know yours

I would think that the best way to avoid misunderstandings would be just to ignore the double - hopefully we would be able to bid this hand without the double!

[jfaria]

Fluffy, on 2014-June-18, 05:53, said:

if partner is old fashioned and I have to redouble becuase 1 spade is not forcing I will rebid 3♠. Actually I would had risked 1♠.

I had no doubt partner would take 1♠ as forcing

Actually I rejected 1♠ a bit for laziness as having the stronger suit in the market I thought I would always be in command

[helene_t]

The problem with this approach is that partner will start thinking along the lines of "my p obviously has some spades but why didn't he bid 1♠ first then?". He might end at the wrong conclusion - for example, it wouldn't be crazy to think you have four spades and 4+ diamonds. Or that you must have something in hearts so that he can safely bid 3NT now. Even if he doesn't reach such a conclusion he is likely to feel confused, which will make him more likely to make a mistake.

[whereagles]

jfaria, on 2014-June-18, 05:16, said:

As for any number of♠ being forcing now, I have my view but would like to know yours

In auctions like

1x (dbl) rdbl

usually opening side has 22+ hcp, so I'd say you can define stuff to be forcing through 2NT or dbl of opponents.

Within this philosophy, pulling out to 2♠ would be forcing for 1 round, and 3♠ game forcing (obviously) and descriptive.

[the_clown]

2♠ is 100 % forcing for me and thats what I am bidding

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2014-June-18, 05:53, said:

if partner is old fashioned and I have to redouble becuase 1 spade is not forcing I will rebid 3♠. Actually I would had risked 1♠.

How old fashioned he can be? 1 ♠ was forcing about 30 years ago ...

[jfaria]

the_clown, on 2014-June-18, 16:17, said:

2♠ is 100 % forcing for me and thats what I am bidding

We are in the same wavelength as I expected
The question is can I have an alternative of bidding, I mean discuss "in private" with my partner the best contarct without telling the world what I got in my bag?

[schi0]

P's x shows 12+ Hcp balanced rather weak in !D, a stronger hand with a good own suit is highly unlikely, anyway we should count max 7-8 losing tricks in P's hand
our hand counts 12 Hcp and 6 Losing tricks which makes game in spades certain and slam a possibility
the priority is to describe accurately and immediately our hand and cut opponents any chance to exchange information
options:
X - typically shows 8-10 Hcp and defensive values
bid at 1 level shows a 4-5 card suit and "some" values 4-8 Hcp,
jump bid would show a 4 card suit and 9-11 points
double jump would show a 6 card suit and less than game going values 8-10 Hcp
none of the above match our hand which leaves us with two options: jump to game or cuebid

at this point we should judge our chances for game versus slam

counting Hcp in opps hands shows that RHO probably has a max of 3 Hcp, in this situation his 2!C bid shows 6+ clubs with K or QJ10 ,shortness in !S, and probably 2 diamonds, alternately may be a lead directing bid showing A!C and 5!c, however counting points rather discredits this alternative

therefore, LHO shoud have KJxxxx in diamonds, and some values in Hearts,
P is very likely to have 2 small diamonds, 4 Hearts, 4 Clubs and 3 Spades
versus a hand like:
!S: Kxx
!h: KQxx
!D: xx
!C: KJxx
would barely make game since we lose A!C, K!D and A!H

while a hand like the following makes 6!S
!S: Kxxx
!H: AQ10x
!D: x
!C: Axxx

therefore we should bid 4!S which is the most descriptive bid at this point and trust that our P will follow same line of reasoning and based on the quality of trump support, posibility to ruff Diamonds, control of Hearts and eventualy 1st round control of clubs may bid 6!S directly

with a void in clubs I would cuebid 3!C odds for slam are higher, in the region of 50%

with better spade quality - AKJ10xx instead of AQJxxx I would cuebid 2!d, waiting for P to show A!C and stronger H suit - bidding sequence would be:
1!D -X - 2!C - 2!D (cue) -
Pas - 2!H (mostlikely , shows 4!H), Pas - 2!S (that is what I want, forcing)
3!C ( Ace of !C, slam seeking)
or alternately 4!S - (STOP, missing Ace of clubs)

[gordontd]

MrAce, on 2014-June-18, 16:56, said:

1 ♠ was forcing about 30 years ago ...

Not everywhere.

[jfaria]

schi0, on 2014-June-19, 04:02, said:

P's x shows 12+ Hcp balanced rather weak in !D, a stronger hand with a good own suit is highly unlikely, anyway we should count max 7-8 losing tricks in P's hand
our hand counts 12 Hcp and 6 Losing tricks which makes game in spades certain and slam a possibility
the priority is to describe accurately and immediately our hand and cut opponents any chance to exchange information
options:
X - typically shows 8-10 Hcp and defensive values
bid at 1 level shows a 4-5 card suit and "some" values 4-8 Hcp,
jump bid would show a 4 card suit and 9-11 points
double jump would show a 6 card suit and less than game going values 8-10 Hcp
none of the above match our hand which leaves us with two options: jump to game or cuebid

at this point we should judge our chances for game versus slam

counting Hcp in opps hands shows that RHO probably has a max of 3 Hcp, in this situation his 2!C bid shows 6+ clubs with K or QJ10 ,shortness in !S, and probably 2 diamonds, alternately may be a lead directing bid showing A!C and 5!c, however counting points rather discredits this alternative

therefore, LHO shoud have KJxxxx in diamonds, and some values in Hearts,
P is very likely to have 2 small diamonds, 4 Hearts, 4 Clubs and 3 Spades
versus a hand like:
!S: Kxx
!h: KQxx
!D: xx
!C: KJxx
would barely make game since we lose A!C, K!D and A!H

while a hand like the following makes 6!S
!S: Kxxx
!H: AQ10x
!D: x
!C: Axxx

therefore we should bid 4!S which is the most descriptive bid at this point and trust that our P will follow same line of reasoning and based on the quality of trump support, posibility to ruff Diamonds, control of Hearts and eventualy 1st round control of clubs may bid 6!S directly

with a void in clubs I would cuebid 3!C odds for slam are higher, in the region of 50%

with better spade quality - AKJ10xx instead of AQJxxx I would cuebid 2!d, waiting for P to show A!C and stronger H suit - bidding sequence would be:
1!D -X - 2!C - 2!D (cue) -
Pas - 2!H (mostlikely , shows 4!H), Pas - 2!S (that is what I want, forcing)
3!C ( Ace of !C, slam seeking)
or alternately 4!S - (STOP, missing Ace of clubs)

Sry p opens 1♦ and RHO x

[kenrexford]

I cannot imagine a world where I do not bid 1♠ with a six-card spade suit.

I cannot imagine a world where I can ever show partner a six-card spade suit later, for that matter.

I mean, if I bid spades later, every spade bid would be a slam try of some sort. 4♠ would be Exclusion with a spade void. 5♠ would be for Kings. 6♠ would be grand slam last train. 7♠ would be a transfer to 7NT because I want the lead coming into partner's hand.

[gszes]

schi0, on 2014-June-19, 04:02, said:

P's x shows 12+ Hcp balanced rather weak in !D, a stronger hand with a good own suit is highly unlikely, anyway we should count max 7-8 losing tricks in P's hand
our hand counts 12 Hcp and 6 Losing tricks which makes game in spades certain and slam a possibility
the priority is to describe accurately and immediately our hand and cut opponents any chance to exchange information
options:
X - typically shows 8-10 Hcp and defensive values
bid at 1 level shows a 4-5 card suit and "some" values 4-8 Hcp,
jump bid would show a 4 card suit and 9-11 points
double jump would show a 6 card suit and less than game going values 8-10 Hcp
none of the above match our hand which leaves us with two options: jump to game or cuebid

at this point we should judge our chances for game versus slam

counting Hcp in opps hands shows that RHO probably has a max of 3 Hcp, in this situation his 2!C bid shows 6+ clubs with K or QJ10 ,shortness in !S, and probably 2 diamonds, alternately may be a lead directing bid showing A!C and 5!c, however counting points rather discredits this alternative

therefore, LHO shoud have KJxxxx in diamonds, and some values in Hearts,
P is very likely to have 2 small diamonds, 4 Hearts, 4 Clubs and 3 Spades
versus a hand like:
!S: Kxx
!h: KQxx
!D: xx
!C: KJxx
would barely make game since we lose A!C, K!D and A!H

while a hand like the following makes 6!S
!S: Kxxx
!H: AQ10x
!D: x
!C: Axxx

therefore we should bid 4!S which is the most descriptive bid at this point and trust that our P will follow same line of reasoning and based on the quality of trump support, posibility to ruff Diamonds, control of Hearts and eventualy 1st round control of clubs may bid 6!S directly

with a void in clubs I would cuebid 3!C odds for slam are higher, in the region of 50%

with better spade quality - AKJ10xx instead of AQJxxx I would cuebid 2!d, waiting for P to show A!C and stronger H suit - bidding sequence would be:
1!D -X - 2!C - 2!D (cue) -
Pas - 2!H (mostlikely , shows 4!H), Pas - 2!S (that is what I want, forcing)
3!C ( Ace of !C, slam seeking)
or alternately 4!S - (STOP, missing Ace of clubs)

I read over this rather lengthy dissertation but it seems to ignore the fact that opener began
with a 1d opening bid and then chose to x 2c so the proposed distributions appear to make no
sense in accordance with the bidding though the analysis is quite detailed and the thinking
process highly useful under different circumstances.

I also have to admit that a 1s bid seems mandatory here though I do not go quite as far as
using 7s as a transfer to 7n in order to allow p to play the hand:) because I need a quick
trip to the loo (kenrexford)

[schi0]

sorry I did get the bidding sequence totally wrong. sorry also for the lengthy disertation I was very excited it looked very interesting the way I initially understood

in case your P opened 1♦, RHO X, then its pretty simple, bid 1♠ as Ken explained why.

[mikeh]

this hand is in the wrong part of the forum. The redouble removed the auction from consideration in the expert forum: this is not a problem an expert would ever have.

[jfaria]

I want to thank you for your kind words.
Although I may agree with your statement, I already explained my reasons for xx in another answer.
Took as a challenge to find a proper solution for a ill stated problem, as I did at the table.
My best students at university always do.
JF