[wank]

---

imps

for those who don't bother to look at the yellow bits in the diagram, 1♣ was 2+ and the 1♥ rebid could still be 2 clubs.

x by you would be 4 hearts. Any number of clubs would be natural. 2♦ would be forcing looking for strain. 2♥ would be 5.

[aguahombre]

I think I will show the four-cards in hearts via Double per our agreements, just for fun. My next bid will be in clubs, absolutely natural at that point, if partner doesn't do something informative....even if it comes back to me at 3 diamonds by them. I might regret it, but oh well.

I have had vul opponents try to job me with that heart rebid before, and I might as well inform partner of the number of hearts I hold. I know you said any number of clubs by me on this round would be natural, but there is a parlay afoot...accident prevention + showing the hearts...because a club bid will for sure be natural on a succeeding round.

[Fluffy]

since LHO is going to bid diamonds 2♣ and then 2♥ seems better

[whereagles]

I don't understand the question.

Dbl shows 4 card heart
2♥ shows 5 card heart

I got 4 card heart

Where's the problem?

[ahydra]

Very surprised X doesn't show four spades. But having the agreement it shows four hearts, that seems ideal for this hand.

ahydra

[wank]

ahydra, on 2014-May-21, 04:15, said:

Very surprised X doesn't show four spades. But having the agreement it shows four hearts, that seems ideal for this hand.

ahydra

we bid spades when we hold spades

[WellSpyder]

wank, on 2014-May-21, 05:22, said:

we bid spades when we hold spades

How quaint!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Deleted nonsense ... ( didn't read the auction carefully ) .

This post has been edited by TWO4BRIDGE: 2014-May-22, 07:55

[aguahombre]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2014-May-21, 07:38, said:

We bid ♥ when we hold ♥ ( 4+ cards )... the Neg-X shows 4 cards ♠ and "says nada about ♥ " .

The 1♠ freebid would show 5+ cards .

" This info comes in handy if the bidding gets into the stratosphere. "

You are incorporating a Negative double concept into a Takeout Double scenario. I don't think a lot of people do that. The reason they don't is because partner's takeout double of their opening minor has brought focus upon both majors as possible strains, and it is necessary for the advancer to help with that.

It is not, at the one-level, as important to distinguish as advancer between 4 & 5 card support for partner's supposed Spade suit as it is considered in the real negative double scenario ---1m (1H) X. In fact, a lot of people don't think it is necessary in that case, either.

When it has gone (1m) X (1H) ---or in the OP case where partner has already suggested holding both majors --- it is easy to bid spades with spades. And it might be valuable when we don't have four spades to show the heart "fit"; do not assume that their 1H bid was even real. The guy could be clowning with a whole lot of Diamonds in support of his partner's response.

[helene_t]

I believe that we can bid 2♠ here if we want to emphasize that we have five of them.

[ahydra]

wank, on 2014-May-21, 05:22, said:

we bid spades when we hold spades

Most I/(low) A players would interpret X here as exactly 4S, 1S as 5+. If you play 1S here is 4+, fair enough, but I don't think it's a standard treatment below expert level. I'm no expert, and do know I've got much to learn, so it's natural for me to be a bit surprised at some things I see at expert level - hence I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mock me.

As agua points out, the 1H bid could easily be a psyche hoping to keep us out of hearts - it's a classic psyche position. Referring to the OP, I think that's yet another reason to double here.

ahydra

[gszes]

Using your agreements

X

to show 4 hearts is off to a decent start---we did not have to do anything so at
the very least we are informing p of our 4 card suit and that we have some
"stuff" over here. While I fully expect to hear 2d from lho we cannot safely
pass in case rho was playing around since if the hand then gets passed out we
might collect 200 for 1h -4 but that loses a lot of imps to making 4h 620 at
these colors. Bidding 2c here might have some merit but it would be a shame
if bidding our empty suit would discourage partner from bidding further and we
miss an easy game.

[Siegmund]

Quote

Most I/(low) A players would interpret X here as exactly 4S, 1S as 5+. If you play 1S here is 4+, fair enough, but I don't think it's a standard treatment below expert level

Eh? Partner claims to have both majors, and I've already passed up a chance to make a 1S overcall. I will NEVER have a good hand with 5 spades here, though I might have a terrible hand with 5 spades. I think 1S as 4+ is universal at all levels.
For that matter I would take 2S as decent values and 4 pieces without discussion, though you could agree to use it as obstructive.

[Zelandakh]

Surely the question being asked in the OP is whether double is both majors or takeout of diamonds given the nebulous opening. Most club players play the former if they do not ask about 1♣ and the latter after asking but since this is the expert forum we can assume that solution is not on the table.

[ahydra]

Siegmund, on 2014-May-21, 23:03, said:

Eh? Partner claims to have both majors, and I've already passed up a chance to make a 1S overcall. I will NEVER have a good hand with 5 spades here, though I might have a terrible hand with 5 spades. I think 1S as 4+ is universal at all levels.
For that matter I would take 2S as decent values and 4 pieces without discussion, though you could agree to use it as obstructive.

My theory what is mine goes like this. Contrast
1) Axxx xxx xxx xxx
2) xxxxx xx Kxx xxx
3) xxxxx xx KQx KJx

All three you would pass initially, even the third which has the values for an overcall but a crappy suit. Partner should really have both majors, but suppose he's had to improvise - eg a 15count 3424 with no stop in diamonds. You X with the first and partner knows to shut up as it's a misfit, bid 1S with the second and partner raises to 2S, and 2S with the third which partner raises to 3S.

I'll discuss this with my regular partner to see if I'm making things up (and to avoid the inevitable disaster!)

As for Zelandakh's question - that's probably down to agreements. If 2C here is natural it sounds like we're treating the short club as artificial, so X would be T/O of diamonds.

ahydra

[helene_t]

In standard methods, when you double a suit which partner has suggested by doubling another suit for t/o, it is penalty. This is not analogous to
1m-(1♥)-x/1♠
where partner hasn't suggested heart length so obviously we can't double hearts for penalty.

You may have the agreement to play responsive doubles in situations like
(1m)-x-(1M)-x
and in that case it should apply here also.

[aguahombre]

aguahombre, on 2014-May-21, 08:25, said:

You are incorporating a Negative double concept into a Takeout Double scenario. I don't think a lot of people do that.

helene_t, on 2014-May-22, 08:49, said:

In standard methods, when you double a suit which partner has suggested by doubling another suit for t/o, it is penalty. This is not analogous to
1m-(1♥)-x/1♠
where partner hasn't suggested heart length so obviously we can't double hearts for penalty.

It must frighten you into reconsidering when it turns out we agree.

[gnasher]

He doubled diamonds, so he's implied suppose for clubs as well as the majors, and club bids would be natural.

The 1♥ bid is a bit suspicious - where are all the diamonds? This is quite a safe position in which to psych. Most people would respond 1♥ with 4-4 in the reds, so opener can bid 1♥ with something like a 3352 shape, knowing that if he gets raised there's a 10-card diamond fit to escape to. If that's what's going on, if I bid 2♣ and it goes pass-pass, RHO might pass it out, judging that his ploy has worked. Hence I double.

[Fluffy]

seems like I evaluate this hand different, I am not scared of missing game, the shape is good but not the honnors, we will struggle to get the clubs going playing in hearts since we miss too many honnors in the rounded suits, and with only 8 trumps the void is not at full power either.

[PhilKing]

I try 2♦, which I play as a one round force, generally two places to play. If it is uncontested, I will remove 2♠ to 3♣, showing clubs and hearts, invitational, and raise 2♥ to three. This may work poorly if pard is 4441, but we were never buying it two if that is the limit. The hand has a lot of potential in other scenarios, particularly when they have psyched, so i am willing to push a little.

And if it is contested, this is the only clear way to let partner know I am shapely.