[el mister]

For the following sequence:

1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?

Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.

[Endymion77]

It shows convertible values (Kx AQxx AKxx Axx or something, who knows what opps are bidding on in this case - maybe opener has a big 2-suiter). If he has a pure takeout hand, he can bid 4NT.

[MrAce]

2 times negatives don't make a positive here.

He is just showing that he has extras that we do not expect from first double and a take out shape usually (rare he may have a DBL then NT hand)
He knows we will lift it with shape. He has good enough hand to play 4♠ doubled if we do not have shape to bid or believe that this is the best place for us to settle.

[helene_t]

 Endymion77, on 2014-April-14, 04:51, said:

If he has a pure takeout hand, he can bid 4NT.

I disagree. I think this double is a pure t/o. Not pure in the sense that you are not allowed to pass it (in fact you should probably pass this hand with most balanced hands). 1444 is expected but he could have 04(54). I suppose that 2(344) is possible also but he would have to be very strong to double with such a hand, and that is not likely on this auction.

4NT would be a more two-suited hand for me. 6♦,4♣ is what you should assume in first instance. If partner corrects you 4♣ bid to 4♦ he probably has 4♥ 6♦.

[EricK]

 Endymion77, on 2014-April-14, 04:51, said:

It shows convertible values (Kx AQxx AKxx Axx or something, who knows what opps are bidding on in this case - maybe opener has a big 2-suiter). If he has a pure takeout hand, he can bid 4NT.

Can you really afford to bid 4NT on pure take-out hands? Surely, if you are strong enough to suggest playing at the 5 level in any other suit, the best result will often actually be to play in 4♠X? 11 tricks is a lot to make against bidding opponents; whereas 4, on defense, is far more likely.

[MrAce]

4 NT take out idea satisfies those who wants to make sure their pd passes when/if they hold a "bone crusher" penalty double hand.

[el mister]

Thanks.

Out of interest, does the analogous auction exist when opps bid hearts? Wonder what that would imply for partner's spade holding.

[Endymion77]

 helene_t, on 2014-April-14, 06:13, said:

4NT would be a more two-suited hand for me. 6♦,4♣ is what you should assume in first instance. If partner corrects you 4♣ bid to 4♦ he probably has 4♥ 6♦.

Yes, that's what I meant by pure takeout - 'double+bid' sort of TOX that doesn't really want to defend 4♠

[aguahombre]

I haven't encountered this situation when (as Doubler) I held a two-suiter or a 6-4 semi two-suiter and wanted to bid now. Maybe that is because of the nature of our overcalls and two-suited direct bids.

Humongous Heart one-suiter could happen.

[the hog]

 el mister, on 2014-April-14, 04:44, said:

For the following sequence:

1♠ - X - 2♠ - pass
4♠ - X - pass - ?

Undiscussed, what is partner's second double here?
If it is clearly takeout, what sort of hand and vuln would you make the double on? Interested to know if it suggests defensive values, or if it is an unequivocal instruction to play at the 5 level.

Still takeout, but better than the first double.