[MrAce]

I would bid 4♥ now

Scoring matters though, at MP i may and would probably choose 3♥

I disagree that 4♣ is auto, but close. However as you stated if Acol or B.Acol has a tool to open differently the hands that are a little stronger than this, then you have a point about self-splinter. Because then this is as much as you will ever hold with this bid.

[wank]

9 is easier than 10. i want to play 3nt if partner has clubs covered, so i start with 2♠. 4♥ would also be acceptable.

partner's not going to know which cards are useful or not for game when you've got this shape so there's no point asking him (3♥)

as for checking to see if partner has akqxx diamonds (4♣), you can't do that in normal methods. if you autosplinter, and partner has a maximum with nothing in clubs and 2 or 3 hearts he'll take us past game.
however, considering the system you play (in case you didn't know yet, benji 2m openings are very poor and played nowhere above club level outside france), the autosplinter should probably be redefined to ask partner for a source of tricks, as you can't have a single suiter not strong enough for a 2m opener that's good enough for slam opposite something like qxx xx akxx xxxx in which case 4♣ would be more sensible. still, the 999 times out of 1000 when partner doesn't oblige with akqxx of diamonds you've massively helped the opponents in how to defend the hand in game so i'd never do it anyway.

[the hog]

My first thought was 4C, my second thought was 4C and my third and final thought is still 4C

[acorn]

eagles123, on 2014-March-21, 06:42, said:

I was shown this hand in a teaching session, both hands were shown and when I said what I though N should bid teacher basically said I was resulting! maybe I was but I thought what I suggested was fairly clear so just looking for opinions

I'll post full hand later.

System is Benji Acol: a 2C opening would have shown an 8 playing trick hand. 1NT is old fashioned ACOL non-forcing. Vulnerability unknown, form of scoring MP in a fairly weak field.

---

thanks,

Eagles

[acorn]

using the 2/1 system this is a tyrust ur pard hand--u have 14 hcpts ans 3 length points -a med hand-u bid 3 h and ur pard takes it from there

[Cyberyeti]

acorn, on 2014-March-22, 12:32, said:

using the 2/1 system this is a tyrust ur pard hand--u have 14 hcpts ans 3 length points -a med hand-u bid 3 h and ur pard takes it from there

OP specifies that it's not 2/1 so 1N is more limited than that.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-22, 15:49, said:

OP specifies that it's not 2/1 so 1N is more limited than that.

Forcing NT has 11+ features compared to nf NT, and some major fit features, all of which will bid game if you choose 3♥, so it is hardly a reason to bid 4♥ now. I bid 4♥ at IMPs not because my pd may hold something more than a nf 1 nt would have. I bid it because i have a very good chance for imps scoring and i have no way to investigate whether he has the "extremely non matching" hand for me.

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2014-March-22, 16:16, said:

Forcing NT has 11+ features compared to nf NT, and some major fit features, all of which will bid game if you choose 3♥, so it is hardly a reason to bid 4♥ now. I bid 4♥ at IMPs not because my pd may hold something more than a nf 1 nt would have. I bid it because i have a very good chance for imps scoring and i have no way to investigate whether he has the "extremely non matching" hand for me.

Yes. A forcing NT definitely contains more hand-types and strengths than a non-forcing NT does. A forcing NT, however, does not mean we have to do anything differently with hands like this than we would if 1NT were not forcing. The only effect on Opener should be to scrape up a minor-suit rebid with hands that would have PASSED a non-forcing 1NT response. This aint one of those.

[jmcilkley]

billw55, on 2014-March-21, 07:28, said:

I would open 1♥, and rebid 3♥ over most responses including 1NT.


I am not knowledgeable on this system, but doesn't this hand have 8 playing tricks?

The rule for 2c opening is "extended rule of 25"
This means the hand must satisfy one of 3 criteria :
1. Points + number of cards in 2 longest suits i equal to or greater than 25, or
2. 8 clear cut tricks on 2nd worst possible distribution, or
3, Any hand with 16+ points

Unfortunately this hand does not satisfy any of these criteria so it would be illegal to open it 2c (in UK, certainly).

[razorsharp]

4H seems obvious, but if your system thinks this is almost a 2C opener, then 4C here as autosplinter, is a distant 2nd choice. (what else can it mean but a void?)

[Vampyr]

jmcilkley, on 2014-March-23, 08:00, said:

The rule for 2c opening is "extended rule of 25"
This means the hand must satisfy one of 3 criteria :
1. Points + number of cards in 2 longest suits i equal to or greater than 25, or
2. 8 clear cut tricks on 2nd worst possible distribution, or
3, Any hand with 16+ points

Unfortunately this hand does not satisfy any of these criteria so it would be illegal to open it 2c (in UK, certainly).

No, these are the requirements for a Benji 2♦ opening. A Benji 2♣ is like a poor-to-medium Acol Two, and is not normally forcing higher than two of opener's suit.m

[StevenG]

Vampyr, on 2014-March-23, 10:47, said:

No, these are the requirements for a Benji 2♦ opening. A Benji 2♣ is like a poor-to-medium Acol Two, and is not normally forcing higher than two of opener's suit.m

That isn't correct, Vampyr. A Benji 2♣ is classified as a strong bid, and all strong bids have to conform to ER25. It's Benji 2♣ bids that cause the problem for good players, because many of these players get upset when weak players use a strong bid on a hand that theory suggests should be preempted with.

As far as I am aware, ER25 is the only EBU rule designed to protect strong players from weak ones, rather than the other way around. As such, I do not think it a good rule - if opponents wish to bid badly, why stop them? And, even worse, sometimes the illegal "strong" bid is in practice the best constructive action.

[fromageGB]

> A Benji 2♣ is classified as a strong bid, and all strong bids have to conform to ER25.

Not quite true, as I read it. Any of 2♣ to 3♠ have to conform to ER25 and/OR various other choices, but none of those apply to this hand either.

[mike777]

fromageGB, on 2014-March-23, 13:59, said:

> A Benji 2♣ is classified as a strong bid, and all strong bids have to conform to ER25.

Not quite true, as I read it. Any of 2♣ to 3♠ have to conform to ER25 and/OR various other choices, but none of those apply to this hand either.

How long do I have to review all of these rules at the table if non Brit?
How long if Brit?
Can I just play sort of strongish 2c but not Benji?
sort of 25 but not 100%
sort of 8 tricks but not 100%
sort of 16 pts but not goren?

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2014-March-23, 22:11, said:

How long do I have to review all of these rules at the table if non Brit?

You could download them and forgo the in-flight movies. You also need to go over their disclosure rules, so you will not have much relax time.

[helene_t]

mike777, on 2014-March-23, 22:11, said:

How long do I have to review all of these rules at the table if non Brit?
How long if Brit?
Can I just play sort of strongish 2c but not Benji?
sort of 25 but not 100%
sort of 8 tricks but not 100%
sort of 16 pts but not goren?

No you have to comply with the rules. Of course you can count points in a different way but then you should add a bit of safety margin so that you are sure that your still comply.

Personally, I find it a good thing that the rules are so clearly spelled out. And they are not that complicated. I would recommend, however, that you check your system's compliance with the regulations before you sit down at the table

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4H.

Slam is unlikely, hence I would not bother with 4C.

If you could find out below 3H, that partner has club wastage, that would be nice,
but you cant, hence bid game, hoping partner has something useful out side clubs.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

eagles123, on 2014-March-21, 15:54, said:

thanks folks, interesting stuff. I thought it was a 4♣ bid and the more I looked at it the more I thought so and I say this because the system is benji. I.e. if it was any stronger it would be a 2♣ opening so the self splinter would be limited by the fact the hand hadn't opened with 2♣

but as I say probably just resulting, other hand was

xxx
x
AKQxx
xxxx

How is partner suppossed to know, that he should go with this hand,
and not go with

Qxx
x
AKxx
xxxxx

The problem is, you have perfect fitting values and fitting shapes.
The 4C bis asks partner to move on with 2 tricks out side clubs, his 1NT bid
basically denied a hand with 3tricks, and I dont think openers hand is strong
enough to send this message.
so yes, you are resulting.

If you can sign of in 2H, 2C is a reasonable opening bid.
But even than it is hard to reach the slam, because 8 1/2 + 2 1/2 makes only
11 tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

I like the 2♠ rebid although it probably requires some discussion. The auction could go
1♥-1NT
2♠-3♦
4♥

In this auction, opener learns about the diamond suit of his partner, after which he can bid game.

Responder's first bid is awkward in this system, by the way. Bid 1NT and you will probably miss game if opener passes with a balanced 15-16. Bid 2♦ and opener will very often rebid 2♥ which could be a silly contract (opener often has five hearts for that bid) but you are not strong enough to bid on.

After a 2♦ respond you might find the slam. After a 1NT responses I don't think so - even if responder gets to show his diamond suit as in the above auction, opener can't know that the diamonds are that good.

[fromageGB]

mike777, on 2014-March-23, 22:11, said:

How long do I have to review all of these rules at the table if non Brit?

aguahombre, on 2014-March-23, 22:53, said:

You could download them and forgo the in-flight movies. You also need to go over their disclosure rules, so you will not have much relax time.

helene_t, on 2014-March-24, 03:10, said:

Personally, I find it a good thing that the rules are so clearly spelled out. And they are not that complicated. I would recommend, however, that you check your system's compliance with the regulations before you sit down at the table

Definitely sit down with your partner and review your system BEFORE you book the flight. As a Brit, you first decide what you want to bid, then check the regulations, then go back and think again. When you get a legal but hampered system worked out, they then bring in new regulations which means you can now do what you originally wanted to do, but to revert that aspect now has impacts on the rest of the system. Actually it's great fun.

The current regulations (as I write on 24th March 2014) are honestly a model of simplicity and clarity on the bidding side. I would much rather play here than in USA, from what I read. Let's hope that this year brings a restructuring of the mess on alerts and announcements.