[jgillispie]

I've been investigating the use of a weak 1NT opening (12-14). Can anybody explain how the bids in the rest of the system (let's assume SAYC) change?

[trevahound]

deleted multi-post, sorry!

[trevahound]

deleted multi-post, sorry!

[trevahound]

All that has to change is that you've replaced one impossible hand type with another. If your 1nt opening range is 12-14, then when you open 1♣ or 1♦, you won't hold a balanced 12-14; you'll be unbalanced, or you'll hold 15+ (assuming you don't open balanced lighter hands).

Typically then, 1m - 1M // 2M shows an unbalanced hand, or a str NT with a fit, as you can't have a balanced hand that's less than that (I'm told this is alertable in ACBL-land).

You'll find the usefulness of some common conventions can vary when you can no longer hold your weak NT after opening something else. I'm not a fan of 12-14 nt's (my least favorite range), but you'll want to consider at least playing penalty doubles instead of support doubles (or inverting your support doubles), and you'll want some sort of checkback after your 1nt rebids -- everyone and their sister here uses some version of 2way NMF.

If you're instead asking about what to play in responding to a weak NT, 2 way stayman and South African Texas fit very well. Transfers of any kind after a wk nt opening work against the preemptive value of the opening.

My preference is 2 way staymen with transfer responses to the 2♦ GF -- but this is with a 10-13 opening NT range, so the GF hand is usually 14+, and there's an advantage to right-siding those.

Have fun with getting your weak NT's off your chest in one call.

[1eyedjack]

One of the more significant changes is that relative merits of rebidding 1N contrasted with rebidding 1 of a 4 card major swing dramatically in favour of the 1N rebid.

It is possible that you might want to revisit your 1N response structure, but this is I think a low priority. If your existing structure is sensible then importing it en bloc will be OK, at least for now.

If you have not felt the need for a formal escape mechanism for when a strong 1N gets doubled, then you may need to invest some time in this area.

All methods have bad hands specific to that method. You will want to root out the difficult hand types in a weak 1N system and decide how to work those problems. Example is that a simple raise of responder's suit will have a wider definition than you are used to.

If you like transfer Walsh responses to 1C and wish to retain them then you will I suspect need to reform the entire continuation structure. Importing that as a module without revision beyond swapping point ranges will not work. Or at least will likely be substantially less than optimal.

It may be that your policy of opening 1N (or not) with a 5 card major may suggest a bit of soul-searching.

[Cyberyeti]

It has some interesting ramifications that can be quite far reaching.

1♦-2♣-2N doesn't have to be 12-14 so can be GF. This means that if you want to (and we're in a small minority that do), you can allow it to be a general GF and not always balanced.

1♣-1♥-1♠ is always 5-4 (if as we do you open 1♦ with 4144).

Smolen is less important, you can't be 15 opposite 10, responder is likely to be at least as good as opener so there is no rightsiding here.

You have to decide whether you open 5M332s 1N or 1M. We like 1N as it means the bidding when you don't open 1N is easier.

Because the ranges of the 1N and 2N rebids are contiguous, you can do some more extreme things if you're comfortable with them. We play an ultra wide range 15-bad 19 1N rebid, with a 2♣ inv+ enquiry (Crowhurst) where you respond at the 3 level with 17-19, meaning that 1x-1y-2N is an unbalanced GF and it solves the problems of either making a fake reverse or an overweight 1x-1y-3x. We find the number of times we play a dodgy 2N with 15 opposite 7 is countered by the times we don't with 18 opposite 5.

Your minors are either real or 15+, so inverted minors on 4 card suits that are not GF come into the picture as you've either got a real fit or you're GF and have time to diagnose what's going on. They can also contain 4M if you want to.

[akwoo]

I played a 12-14nt with 2/1 regularly for a while, so I can say some things about this, though perhaps not as much as some of the others here who have even more experience with this.

1) You structure over 1n openings does not need to change, though of course responder needs to be 3 points stronger for all invitational/game bids.

2) You probably want some runout methods, but they come up much less frequently than you might have thought. Half their value is in convincing balancing seat to pass rather than double, though down 2 vulnerable undoubled isn't so great either (but better than down 2 doubled).

2) 1X-1Y-1N now shows 15-17. You need to decide whether this applies with X=hearts, Y=spades. If yes, then you will end up opening many 5332 hearts hands in range with 1N. If not, you have trouble showing 5332 hands with hearts and 15-17 hcp.

3) Received wisdom is that your ranges for 1m-1M-2M and 1m-1M-3M raises by opener change a bit. The 1m-1M-2M raise should be about 11-14 unbalanced (including many 14's that you might have stretched to raise to 3) or 15-16 balanced, and 1m-1M-3M should be about 15-17 unbalanced or 17-18 balanced. There are two reasons for this. One is that opener's weakest hands for playing in a suit have been opened 1n, so this method cuts up the ranges a little better. A second reason is that responder will stretch to respond on any hand with a likely entry (even just a king), which would be enough to make 1n if opener has 15-17 balanced.

4) Responder can be more aggressive in competition opposite a 1m opening, because a 1m opening promises either an unbalanced hand or 15+ hcp. This is actually imho the most valuable feature of playing a 12-14 1N. I would go so far as to say that if you can't figure out how to take advantage of this, you should not be playing 12-14 1N.

5) To emphasize this advantage, 1X-1Y-1Z (Z a suit) should promise an unbalanced hand.

6) To avoid rebid problems, 5422 hands with the 5 in a minor and 12-14 hcp should usually open 1N, perhaps except with 5 clubs and 4 spades.

7) 2-way-nmf becomes much more valuable, because 1m-1M-1N-2m as a signoff is worthless; you'd rather play in NT when opener has 15-17.

8) On the other hand, XYZ (other than when opener rebids 1N) is much worse, because you want the 2m signoff opposite an unbalanced minimum opener.

9) Partly because of (4), and partly because of potential rebid problems for opener when holding an unbalanced hand with opponent's suit, you may want to consider negative (around 6-11 at the 2 level) free bids.

[Vampyr]

trevahound, on 2014-February-07, 19:14, said:

but you'll want to consider at least playing penalty doubles instead of support doubles (or inverting your support doubles), and you'll want some sort of checkback after your 1nt rebids -- everyone and their sister here uses some version of 2way NMF.

I don't think you can use support doubles at all; normally people play takeout doubles in these positions. These doubles may be shape-suitable minimums or strong NT; this is IMO the chief weakness of the weak NT. if I recall correctly, this is why JLOGIC said he would never play a weak NT.

Quote

Transfers of any kind after a wk nt opening work against the preemptive value of the opening.

I don't understand what this means

1eyedjack, on 2014-February-08, 02:42, said:

If you have not felt the need for a formal escape mechanism for when a strong 1N gets doubled, then you may need to invest some time in this area.

I have found that natural escapes work fine, especially when combined with subsequent redoubles over 2♣ or 2♦ when you don ' have the suit but have the higher ones. YMMV, but I strongly believe that the important thing is to keep your ability to play 1NTX.

Some weak NT pairs play strong in 3rd position, especially at teams.

[Vampyr]

akwoo, on 2014-February-08, 03:24, said:

6) To avoid rebid problems, 5422 hands with the 5 in a minor and 12-14 hcp should usually open 1N, perhaps except with 5 clubs and 4 spades.

LOL crossed lots of posts.

What I see a lot more frequently is that people take their lumps and rebid the minor.

[Cyberyeti]

akwoo, on 2014-February-08, 03:24, said:

6) To avoid rebid problems, 5422 hands with the 5 in a minor and 12-14 hcp should usually open 1N, perhaps except with 5 clubs and 4 spades.

I think this is an American thing, in the UK it's much more common to rebid the minor.

[1eyedjack]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-08, 05:16, said:

I think this is an American thing, in the UK it's much more common to rebid the minor.

That is not my experience. I think that it is much more common to open 1N, at least among experienced players. Furthermore, what is more common and what is winning strategy may not coincide, and when they don't, who cares what is more common?

[Cyberyeti]

1eyedjack, on 2014-February-08, 06:32, said:

That is not my experience. I think that it is much more common to open 1N, at least among experienced players. Furthermore, what is more common and what is winning strategy may not coincide, and when they don't, who cares what is more common?

I know very few people who with 5-4 that is not both minors open 1N here (and this is from somebody who's played at a decent level for 30+ years).

1N-P-P-P on a 2452 can be extremely silly particularly if partner (as they often do) with a 2533 9 count passes.

[1eyedjack]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-08, 09:25, said:

I know very few people who with 5-4 that is not both minors open 1N here (and this is from somebody who's played at a decent level for 30+ years).

1N-P-P-P on a 2452 can be extremely silly particularly if partner (as they often do) with a 2533 9 count passes.

I can only relate my experience, as you can yours. They don't need to coincide. I only did not want anyone forming the opinion that yours was universally shared. When I moved areas even within the UK I discovered quite different local practices.
And it comes as no surprise that you can construct individual hands that lead to a silly result. It is a numbers game. Most of the time that I talk them out of a 9 card Spade fit I expect to gain.

[ggwhiz]

I played weak notrump for a year when I started out just because all tournament roads led through Montreal when Kokish was in fine form and I wanted to learn how to play against it.

One comment that struck me was that the big advantage to it was when you opened something else. ie. after opening 1♣ and rebidding 1♠ partner has no problem supporting clubs to the 3 level on xxx in a competitive auction.

Too long ago for me to remember all the nuances but it's a comprehensive shift with (my guess) more emphasis on taking full advantage of suit openings and survival on the 1nt ones that can fairly often put you in a bind.

[akwoo]

Vampyr, on 2014-February-08, 04:23, said:

I don't think you can use support doubles at all; normally people play takeout doubles in these positions. These doubles may be shape-suitable minimums or strong NT; this is IMO the chief weakness of the weak NT. if I recall correctly, this is why JLOGIC said he would never play a weak NT.

I use support doubles. The opening bid will contain a shape suitable minimum or strong NT most of the time (particularly if it doesn't include 5422s and many 6322s), so responder is already encouraged to bid on after, say, 1♣ - (P) - 1♠ - (2♥) - P - (P). On rare occasions responder makes a balancing double on a shapely 7-8 hcp hand and opener is stuck with an unbalanced minimum and 4 mediocre hearts, but the frequency of the support double being useful is a lot higher than the frequency of this disaster. (Indeed, I can't recall any situation where this got us into trouble; 3♣ on a 5-2 fit is frequently better than letting opps play 2♥.)

Cyberyeti, on 2014-February-08, 09:25, said:

I know very few people who with 5-4 that is not both minors open 1N here (and this is from somebody who's played at a decent level for 30+ years).

1N-P-P-P on a 2452 can be extremely silly particularly if partner (as they often do) with a 2533 9 count passes.

The opponents have 9 spades and 17hcp. They're not letting us play in 2♥ after a 1♦ opening. They might let us play in 1N or 2♥ after a 1N opening though (though having opps let us play in 2♥ after a 1N opening might just be due to their unfamiliarity with playing against 12-14 1N).

[jallerton]

jgillispie, on 2014-February-07, 18:57, said:

I've been investigating the use of a weak 1NT opening (12-14). Can anybody explain how the bids in the rest of the system (let's assume SAYC) change?

Weak NT can be played with a range of 1suit opening bids, for example:

5-card majors, better minor
5-card majors, short club (1♦ 4+)
5-card majors, short club (1♦ usually 5+)
4-card majors, open 1M with 4/4 in major/minor
4-card majors, open 1m with 4/4 in major/minor
5-card spade suit, open 1m with 4/4 in major/minor and 1♣ with 4=3=3=3.
Strong club, 5-card majors
Strong club, 4-card majors
Fantunes

You have to decide on which of these structures you wish to use before being able to draw too many inferences about how the rest of the system might change.

[mycroft]

From an SA starting point, moving to a weak NT is going to push you toward K/S (or K/S Updated, or...) This is not universally true - the people playing from an Acol framework don't agree with a lot of what I'm about to say; but if you're currently playing SA, you probably should.

1) Every balanced hand (possible exception: 5M332, 54M22) between 12 and 17 high changes. This is the real key; if you don't understand that, the system will bite you.

2) As a result of that, K/S went to strong minor openings. My partnership also puts "overstrength 2m bids" into 1m, and it's frequently a scare in competition; but we get better results "most of the time" doing that than passing the unbalanced 11s, 12s with 6 card m. But you assume that when partner opens 1m they have a good hand - and they'd better not have the crappy semi-balanced 12s (and 13s, shh), which are auto-passes.

3) This means, as said above, that 1m-1M; 2M is "15-17 playing points in support of M". At least that's what you promise. You might not have it in extremis, of course. That is comfortable; now 3M is 18-19, 4M is 20-21ish, and you don't have to worry about pushing to potentially thin games with the strong hand on the table.

4) Competition in fourth seat will sometimes be impossible to handle. It's a hole in the system, and there's only so much you can do about it. Every system has problem auctions; this is the weak NTs. At least you know partner has strength, if not shape - and frequently you get your own back because the strong NTers need to be able to deal with weak balanced *and* weak semi-balanced hands, but you know that partner has something over there.

5) They will compete on your 1m openings; at least as often as they competed over your strong 1NT openings - especially because they can compete at the 1 level. You need to be able to show the "strong NT that can no longer bid NT because of lack of stoppers" - that tends to be what the "support double" is used for.

6) Finally we come to the weak NT itself. The first thing to know is that if you're playing in ACBL-land, you're going to "wrongside" a lot of hands where opener is balanced; 1m-1M; 2M vs 1NT-2♣; 2M (either way) and 1NT-p vs 1m-1M; 2M (again, either way) are the big ones. The next question is whether you want to "wrongside" a lot more hands to gain the benefits of the extra auctions with transfers, or whether you want to go with the field. If you go with the field, you gain the advantage of more preemption: 1NT is a preemptive call, and 1NT-2♥ "partner, pass" is more preemptive yet; fourth hand knows she isn't getting two calls. But you need to work out how to show all the hands - many people play two-way Stayman, for instance.

7) Push hard after 1NT. If you have a place to play, get there fast. 3NT on 12 vs 12 makes a lot more often than 3NT on 15 vs 9; especially 1NT-3NT. So don't invite. If you need to get out, and you can, DO! It's really hard to double 1NT-p-2♥ (to play) for penalty.

8) Have a runout system over 1NT, and practise it until you can do it in your sleep. You will be. Do it when they double for "one suit", "takeout" or whatever they play as well; fourth hand has been known to have a penalty double. There are lots and lots of options; the ups and downs of the various system is a whole topic in itself (and IIRC, there have been at least two on BBO). Also: know how you show a good hand, when *they* run.

9) Agree what 11s are going into your 1NT. I suggest "A, A, K, suited or not, only" until you have a feel for it. Similarly, have an idea which 14s are too strong.

10) Playing a weak NT will get you used to playing bad contracts. Whether it's the NT itself, or a runout into a 4-3 with two balancedish hands and 16 points, or NT where the field is in the major, or whatever. Frequently, you're -EV on double-dummy defence, but if you are confident and have experience playing these, you get that one trick you need to win the board. If you give up, you'll probably turn a bad board into a horrible one.

11) As said above, you will more often rebid 1NT "for shape" than playing a strong NT. It's much safer, because after the minimum "6 HCP" response, there are much fewer hands that are less than invitational (6-bad 9) after a strong NT rebid than after a weak NT rebid (6-bad 12) - and with invitational hands you can check back for a missing spade suit (or a missing either major, after 1♣-1♦).