[jerdonald]

BBO forum,
Does a Lebensohl double over a weak 2 opener have to be alerted
and if so what is the alert?

jerry

[Vampyr]

jerdonald, on 2014-February-04, 23:18, said:

BBO forum,
Does a Lebensohl double over a weak 2 opener have to be alerted
and if so what is the alert?

jerry

You haven't mentioned your jurisdiction, but I imagine that in most places the double, if it is ordinary takeout, does not have to be alerted, but the Lebensohl 2NT does.

[hautbois]

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking.

I guess a Lebensohl double would be for penalty and that would be alerted.

As usually played, the double isn't Lebensohl per se, but for take out and won't be alerted. However, a Lebensohl 2NT response to the double is alerted. I usually hear it explained as "Lebensohl; relay to 3C." I don't like saying more if opponents understand that. "Relay to 3C to play there, sign off below your suit, or invite above your suit," seems like I'm reminding partner what the follow ups mean, but opponents should be told if the shorter description is inadequate for them.

Edit: Assuming ACBL jurisdiction

[Vampyr]

hautbois, on 2014-February-04, 23:45, said:

"Lebensohl; relay to 3C."

I am not at all sure that this is adequate disclosure.

[1eyedjack]

I'm intrigued. I always thought that those who played Leb over weak 2s use double to mean what everyone else means by it. Straight takeout. Whether that would be alertable in any environment would depend on alerting regs in that environment, but I would be surprised to discover that there were any such environment in which an alert is expected. Could be wrong of course.

[aguahombre]

Vampyr, on 2014-February-04, 23:47, said:

I am not at all sure that this is adequate disclosure.

Me neither. We don't use "3C" in our disclosure statement about the 2NT bid at all. For specifically (2S) X, we say, "Artificial, with usually less than 9 points." Doubler will ELC in advance, rather than bid 3C if appropriate.

[helene_t]

hautbois, on 2014-February-04, 23:45, said:

"Relay to 3C to play there, sign off below your suit, or invite above your suit," seems like I'm reminding partner what the follow ups mean

Yes, I believe a better disclosure is that it is either a weak hand that wants to play in a lower-ranking suit, or some positive hand. I don't like saying "relay to 2♣". That wouldn't say what kind of hands the 2NT bid can contain. Besides, if opps are advanced enough to understand the difference between relay, puppet and transfer, they are also advanced enough to understand the short explanation "Lebensohl".

[jerdonald]

BBO forum,
Yes the double of the weak 2 opener is just a standard takeout
and if the responder bids 2NT it has to be alerted.

But there is a specified list of bids that are made after
the double of a weak 2 if the team is using Lebensohl so
doesn't the double, by inference, start a Levensohl
sequence?

Jerry

[barmar]

jerdonald, on 2014-February-05, 18:02, said:

But there is a specified list of bids that are made after
the double of a weak 2 if the team is using Lebensohl so
doesn't the double, by inference, start a Levensohl
sequence?

Yes, but it doesn't change the meaning of the double, so there's no need to alert that bid.

You alert most of advancer's bids, though. You alert 2NT because it's artificial, and you alert his natural bids because the expected strength and/or length is affected by the fact that he didn't go through Lebensohl first.

If advancer bids 2NT, you alert doubler's 3♣ bid because it's forced, not natural. But if doubler bids something else, its meaning is the same as if they weren't playing Lebensohl (it shows a very strong hand and a natural suit), so there's no need to alert.

[aguahombre]

barmar, on 2014-February-05, 18:48, said:

If advancer bids 2NT, you alert doubler's 3♣ bid because it's forced, not natural. But if doubler bids something else, its meaning is the same as if they weren't playing Lebensohl (it shows a very strong hand and a natural suit), so there's no need to alert.

We indeed alert 3C, but not because it is forced (it isn't) or unnatural (it isn't). 3C merely says Double has a routine-ish takeout Double and is willing to be passed in 3C.

With, say, 1-4-6-2 and a regular strength takeout double we don't choose to bid 3C over the Double...rather 3D and don't show extras. Yes the continuations such as this are alerted, and need to be alerted. But, they don't mean what you claim universally.

[Vampyr]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-05, 21:58, said:

With, say, 1-4-6-2 and a regular strength takeout double we don't choose to bid 3C over the Double(after the 2NT advance)...rather 3D and don't show extras. Yes the continuations such as this are alerted, and need to be alerted. But, they don't mean what you claim universally.

If 3♦ doesn't show extras, what do you do with a big hand?

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-05, 21:58, said:

We indeed alert 3C, but not because it is forced (it isn't) or unnatural (it isn't). 3C merely says Double has a routine-ish takeout Double and is willing to be passed in 3C.

With, say, 1-4-6-2 and a regular strength takeout double we don't choose to bid 3C over the Double...rather 3D and don't show extras. Yes the continuations such as this are alerted, and need to be alerted. But, they don't mean what you claim universally.

You may do, I overcall 3♦ on that, 3♦ over 2N shows a big hand.

[blackshoe]

In the ACBL, as I understand the alert regulation, if you play Lebensohl in this position (partner has doubled a weak two bid), the double does not require an alert, but your 2NT or any three level bid requires an alert. In explaining the meaning of the alerted bid, the name of the convention is not sufficient, you have to explain what the bid means.

If you play some variant of Lebensohl, it may be that some bids advancing the double would not require an alert, but I think 2NT would always require one. In particular, an immediate natural and non-forcing 3 bid in a suit (other the suit opened) would not require an alert.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2014-February-06, 02:18, said:

In particular, an immediate natural and non-forcing 3 bid in a suit (other the suit opened) would not require an alert.

Even if it shows values?

[blackshoe]

Depends on what you mean by "values".

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2014-February-06, 12:36, said:

Depends on what you mean by "values".

More than you would have had had you gone through Lebensohl. Without any kit, the bid could be on a Yarborough.

[blackshoe]

As I understand it, if you have no "kit", then your suit response to partner's double of a weak 2 is natural, probably five or more cards in the suit, and anything from 0 HCP up to just below whatever you would cue bid with. IOW a natural and (nearly) unlimited bid. As near as I can tell, given that the ACBL alert regulations don't directly address this auction at all, such bids do not require an alert. An assumption here is that you would pass the double only with a hand that wants to convert it to penalty. I think (I could be wrong) that if you would also pass on some hands because you are "not strong enough to bid", that still requires no alert.

[CSGibson]

blackshoe, on 2014-February-08, 20:05, said:

As I understand it, if you have no "kit", then your suit response to partner's double of a weak 2 is natural, probably five or more cards in the suit, and anything from 0 HCP up to just below whatever you would cue bid with. IOW a natural and (nearly) unlimited bid. As near as I can tell, given that the ACBL alert regulations don't directly address this auction at all, such bids do not require an alert. An assumption here is that you would pass the double only with a hand that wants to convert it to penalty. I think (I could be wrong) that if you would also pass on some hands because you are "not strong enough to bid", that still requires no alert.

Ed, I think you are confusing the issue with your attempt to be helpful. What you are writing about is in no version of lebensohl I am familiar with, and probably does not address in any way the OP's problem.

to the OP: playing standard lebensohl, double does not need to be alerted. Responder's 2N and 3 level suit bids after X need to be alerted, with the possible exception of the cue-bid (I'm not sure, but they are rarely alerted).

Alerting rule of thumb: Bids should only be alerted if they convey unusual information. X does not mean anything different whether you are playing lebensohl or not; only responder's calls have different meanings because of the convention, and only responder's calls need to be alerted unless you are using other conventional treatments in conjunction with lebensohl, like Dave's equal level conversion example.

[blackshoe]

I said "no 'kit'". Lebensohl is 'kit'. And I wasn't talking to the OP, I was talking to Stefanie.

[CSGibson]

blackshoe, on 2014-February-10, 22:17, said:

I said "no 'kit'". Lebensohl is 'kit'. And I wasn't talking to the OP, I was talking to Stefanie.

Its hard to tell sometimes when you don't use the quote. And, of course, what the hell is a kit (rhetorical, I don't care, but obviously not a term that's universal).