[Trinidad]

diana_eva, on 2014-January-27, 10:05, said:

Well our argument was basically that I learned this:

Trinidad, on 2014-January-27, 09:03, said:

If you are a passed hand, and you play Drury, you can take all the raises out of the 1NT response. Drury shows about 8-12/13 and 1M-2M shows about 4-8. This means that 1NT can now be passed out, without the fear of missing a 5-3 major fit.

While my pd expected this:

hrothgar, on 2014-January-27, 08:51, said:

Personally, if I had agreed "Constructive raises" and hadn't explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats, I would assume that

1NT is forcing (not semi forcing)
Constructive raises still apply

So it all falls back to "discuss" eh, not much of an expert trend that I wasn't aware of.

But the point is that you had explicitly discussed auctions over third/fourth seats:

diana_eva, on 2014-January-27, 08:17, said:

We play drury

As soon as you agree on that, at least in the "modern tendencies" that you asked for, this means that single raises are only constructive by an unpassed hand. (In the old times Drury showed a maximum pass (~11-12). Modern Drury shows a good raise (~8-12).)

Rik

[Mbodell]

My preference is for 1nt semi-forcing, 1-way drury (2♦ instead of 2♣ but there's only 1 partner I play that with), and a raise to 2M as "constructive". My definition of constructive is there exists at least 1 game try I'd accept. I'd want a 8 LTC hand for drury. So for me the constructive raises are the 9 LTC hands that would accept a game try. With the E hand I'd bid P, 2♠, 4♥. Because I'd accept a long suit try in hearts, a short suit try in hearts, and likely a short suit try in diamonds too.

[diana_eva]

Trinidad, on 2014-February-09, 03:54, said:

As soon as you agree on that, at least in the "modern tendencies" that you asked for, this means that single raises are only constructive by an unpassed hand. (In the old times Drury showed a maximum pass (~11-12). Modern Drury shows a good raise (~8-12).)

Rik

Yes, the problem was we didn't explicitly discuss drury ranges. We open quite light so I assumed we toss all the good 8+ raises in the drury (we probably wd have already opened a good 11 with support in majors). But it was not discussed and I think pd assumed drury is still "I forgot to open" while the 8 point hands go via constructive raises. I also assumed forcing NT was off, while he assumed it was on. We still haven't settled this disagreement FWIW I gave in and play his way, trying to open more disciplined and letting him do all the masterminding.

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2014-February-09, 03:20, said:

I think playing constructive 2M and/or forcing/semi forcing NT by a passed hand is awful.

And merely saying you think something is awful is not particularly constructive, either. I would agree, however, that it is awful for you and for most pairs.

For a few of us weirdos it works just fine. Forcing NT responses are (usually) made with hands less than g.f; passed hands are almost less than g.f. across from a Major suit opening. So, the hands on which it occurs are mostly the same hands whether we have actually passed or not.

The reason people need Drury and shouldn't use a forcing NT when they are a passed hand have nothing to do with the nature of the responding hand and everything to do with the possible garbage opening bid in 3rd chair which might not even contain 5 pieces in the opened Major. But, what if our opening 1M in 3rd chair has the same floor as our opening 1M in the other positions? (That floor is low enough, already.)

Then, your opinion might change to: "Using the same criteria for opening 1M in 3rd position is awful." But, you would see why the awful pairs who do that might as well use forcing NT and not use Drury.

[kenberg]

First chair openings seem to be getting lighter and lighter, presumably making it less necessary/desirable to open light third hand. Still, I like to do it.

I would like to hear more about "modern Drury". That is, bidding on 8+. It seems right to me, and I know it is done right or wrong, but there are issues, or so it seems to me. The issues are particularly severe if the Druy bid might be 2♦. I know I already mentioned this but I would like to hear more.

So
Kxx / AQxxx / Kx / Qxx

Uncontested, dealer passes: Pass-1♠-2♦-?

Presumably you do not bid 2♥ but also presumably you could have less and still not want to bid 2♥. I can imagine various ways of sorting this out, my preference is that 2♣ covers all Drury hands, but for those of you who expect partner to bid Drury on an 8 count how do you proceed here?

[MrAce]

aguahombre, on 2014-February-09, 08:50, said:

And merely saying you think something is awful is not particularly constructive, either. I would agree, however, that it is awful for you and for most pairs.

I was actually being polite when i said awful. (especially for the "forcing" part)

[aguahombre]

MrAce, on 2014-February-09, 12:30, said:

I was actually being polite when i said awful. (especially for the "forcing" part)

And did you politely read why it is different for us? Anyway, we both agree it is awful for most players, because of their opening 1M style in 3rd.

[Cthulhu D]

kenberg, on 2014-February-09, 10:15, said:

First chair openings seem to be getting lighter and lighter, presumably making it less necessary/desirable to open light third hand. Still, I like to do it.

I'm pretty sure it's because there is a huge informational advantage in being the first mover.

[aguahombre]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-February-09, 20:57, said:

I'm pretty sure it's because there is a huge informational advantage in being the first mover.

There certainly is. When it is most likely the opponents' hand, however, I am not sure whether the informational advantage is ours or theirs.

[Zelandakh]

Here's an alternative structure for 3rd/4th seat based on turning traditional methods on their head:

1♥ opening
==
1♠ = any invite without 4 hearts
1NT = weak with 4+ spades
2m = weak and nat
2♥ = weak raise
others = 4+ card raises to taste
--

1♥ - 1♠
==
1NT = min without 4 spades (now natural with 2♥ effectively acting as Drury)
2♣ = 4+ spades, any strength (now natural with 2♥ effectively acting as Drury)
2♦ and up = extras and GF
--

Similarly for a 1♠ opening:

1NT = any invite without 4 spades
2♣♦♥ = weak and nat
2♠ = weak raise
others = 4+ card raises to taste
--

1♠ - 1NT
==
2♣ = min without 4 hearts (now natural with 2♠ effectively acting as Drury)
2♦ = 4+ hearts, any strength (now natural with 2♠ effectively acting as Drury)
others = extras and GF
--

For the "others = GF" rebids you can use a relay structure if desired but it is not necessary providing you allow for the fact that Opener will not hold the other major.

Notice also that the 1M - 2m and 1♠ - 2♥ responses follow the same pattern as jallerton's, albeit that they are perhaps weaker in terms of pure strength. This system also goes one stage further in that, for example, 1♠ - 2♣; 2♦ - 2♥ is not required for 4th suit forcing and should be played as showing hearts.

As was pointed out in another recent thread a workable Drury-based alternative is to play a 2♣ response as natural and make the 2♦ response the decent raise. As others have said it seems somewhat unnecessary to play both constructive raises and Drury together so if we agree both I would assume CRs are off as a passed hand. If we agreed only CRs (and no Drury) then I would assume they are still on.

[jallerton]

Zelandakh, on 2014-February-12, 07:19, said:

Here's an alternative structure for 3rd/4th seat based on turning traditional methods on their head:

1♥ opening
==
1♠ = any invite without 4 hearts
1NT = weak with 4+ spades
2m = weak and nat
2♥ = weak raise
others = 4+ card raises to taste
--

So what does Responder do with a 3=2=4=4 7-count?

[aguahombre]

jallerton, on 2014-February-12, 13:25, said:

So what does Responder do with a 3=2=4=4 7-count?

presumably Zel meant 1♠/1♥ MIGHT be made on an invite w/o 4 spades. Opener's most common 1NT rebid would then be passed by responder with your 3=2=4=4 7-count --- as would a 2m rebid or a 2H rebid.

[Zelandakh]

jallerton, on 2014-February-12, 13:25, said:

So what does Responder do with a 3=2=4=4 7-count?

Weak hand - bid your cheapest 4 card suit naturally, so 2♣. Opener can pass that with a minimum and 3+ card support or continue naturally. You could try improvising as agua suggests but that would be risky - playing 2♣ opposite a 4630 is probably not optimal. My auction for that, assuming Opener is minimum, would be 1♥ - 2♣; 2♥ - p.