[patroclo]

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[ahydra]

Do I really want to be in the second one? Looks awful, needing hearts and spades to break.

First one is not much better, maybe ~61% if you ruff two hearts in North and hope for either spades 3-3 or clubs 2-2. Playing IMPs,

1C-1D;
1S-3C;
4C (reasonable since you're max for 1S)-4H (cue);
4S (cue)-4NT (RKC);
5C (0 or 3)-5D (CQ?);
6C (no)-p

At pairs I'd be reluctant to bid 4C though, with 3NT likely to be the place to play.

ahydra

[Cyberyeti]

ahydra, on 2014-January-14, 09:27, said:

Do I really want to be in the second one? Looks awful, needing hearts and spades to break.

First one is not much better, maybe ~61% if you ruff two hearts in North and hope for either spades 3-3 or clubs 2-2. Playing IMPs,

1C-1D;
1S-3C;
4C (reasonable since you're max for 1S)-4H (cue);
4S (cue)-4NT (RKC);
5C (0 or 3)-5D (CQ?);
6C (no)-p

At pairs I'd be reluctant to bid 4C though, with 3NT likely to be the place to play.

ahydra

First one is better than that, 4-3 diamonds will also get you there with trumps 3-1 or a heart lead

1♣(4+)-2♣(inverted not GF)
2♦(13+ enquiry)-2N(minimum ish with diamonds and no major)
3♥(cue)-3N(spade stop)
4♣-4♥
4♠-4N(♦ cue)
6♣

The second is dodgier.

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2N-3♠
4♠ and then S is on a guess, might well pass, N would bid something other than 4♠ with any excuse.

[nigel_k]

On the first one I would splinter:

1♣-3♥
3♠-4♦
4♥-5♣
6♣

On the second one:

1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2NT-3♠
4♠-pass

[mikeh]

I'm only going to comment on the first one.

I don't like any of the suggested auctions. The inverted auction is, perhaps, the more plausible one but it requires that one have specific agreements, and this is the IA section, so posting idiosyncratic specialized methods seems to me to be simply a bad idea.

Splintering when partner could be some 4333 weak notrump, with 3=3 minors, seems very strange to me, and I wonder how much the knowledge that partner held 5 clubs influenced, even unconsciously, the decision.

To me, ahydra's sequence seems sensible until he bid 4♣, where he lost me entirely.

A normal, simple method consistent with natural bidding and invoking no particular special treatment:

1♣ 1♦
1♠ 3♣
3♥ 4♦


Now, in some partnerships, the 1♠ bid would guarantee 5 clubs. This is true for many 'walsh' style players, since 1♦ would, for them, deny a 4 card major which in turn means that opener wouldn't show a 4 card major with a balanced hand. While a 1♥ bid would be consistent with 4=4=1=4, 1♠ would promise 5.

Edit: deleted ref to 4SF by N, since I had thought, for no good reason, that N was a passed hand. However, I wasn't suggesting it anyway.

Over 3♣, S should imo definitely bid 3♥. He can and probably should pass 3N should partner bid it with, say, Qx Jx KQJxx QJxx (if you'd open that horrible hand, modify accordingly...I am not suggesting exact hands).

As it is, the cuebid shows definite extras and N has a pretty good hand with every value working. S didn't simply bid 3N himself, so was clearly ready to move forward if N liked his hand, which he should.

I suggest 4♦ as the cue, over which S can't quite take control. Some would argue that he could keycard, if playing 1430, intending to pass a 5♣ response and I wouldn't be overly critical of a S who chose that. I think that with an expert partner (I know, this is IA but I can still explain my thinking), I would simply cuebid. Now, North, whose hand is basically as good as it can be, other than wishing for a 5th club, bids the small slam. The odds that we have grand on this auction, where opener rebid a quiet 1♠ and never took control, are not good enough to be worth contemplating.

Note that I haven't specified exactly how the auction would/should go over 4♦. I think S has to clarify that he has hearts controlled, so I would choose 4♥. N now has problems.

Personally, I would 'solve' that by way of a gadget I have described before: I use 4N here as forward going. While this can be controversial in many sequences, I defy anyone to come up with any other meaning in this auction. No way can responder ever place the contract after all conceivable keycard responses, and playing it as natural seems to me to make no sense.

However, this is doing what I previously criticized someone else for doing. I wouldn't expect any IA player to use 4N here as 'keep it going'. So N has to decide: cuebid spades? I personally wouldn't.

Make a regressive move of 5♣? That will often be passed when slam is good, and our hand is too good, imo. 3 massively working high cards and an undisclosed ruffing value opposite partner's announced heart control. I would simply bid 6♣ if my pet treatment were not available. I am giving up on grand. Were I Qx x Axxxx AJxxx, I would bid 5♥ as a try for grand (it is a try for grand because it commits to 6♣ and we would bid 6♣ if that was all we were interested in bidding).

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2014-January-14, 15:42, said:

Also in some partnerships, N could, over 1♠, bid 2♥ as fourth suit forcing, limited by N's status as a passed hand. However, neither agreement is needed to justify the auction to 3♣.

N is not a passed hand (I'd have opened the N hand), E passed.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-January-14, 16:43, said:

N is not a passed hand (I'd have opened the N hand), E passed.

good catch. However, irrelevant to my main thesis, since I didn't suggest 4SF anyway. it was a 'leaf' (in BWS terms) to my suggested auction, and, as it happens, an error:)

[ggwhiz]

In my neck of the woods it starts

p - 1♣ - p - 1♦
1♥ by east which upgrades the opener to a 2♠ jump and we have a chance but just as likely to be in 3nt +2.

No way I get to slam on #2 as we value our plus scores too highly.

[Zelandakh]

ggwhiz, on 2014-January-14, 17:47, said:

In my neck of the woods it starts
p - 1♣ - p - 1♦
1♥ by east

I much prefer 2♥ by East there, which at least has some preemptive effect.

When I looked at Hand 1 my first thought was 1♣ - 2♣; 3♦ wtp. Then I remembered to take my Acol hat off. The consensus is to start 1♣ - 1♦; 1♠ - 3♣. If 3♣ is simply invitational here then I am confident that almost everyone over here would bid a simple 3NT now without seeing the other hand. Perhaps everyone across The Pond plays this sequence as game-forcing though. It is very strange to me for 3♥ to be natural in a sequence like this although I know this idea is popular over there in GF auctions.

There is also something quite interesting here from a theory point of view. After 1♣ - 1♦; 1♠, playing Walsh style means that Responder has a GF hand if they hold 4 spades. Given that, do we play a 2♠ raise as GF or just as 3 card support? And if this is GF, do we really need 3♥ as a splinter with spades agreed? Would it not make more sense to use this rebid to show club support and shortage, especially since Opener has shown a club suit by the 1♠ rebid just as much as a spade suit?

Hand 2 looks easy with both nigel and CY having given the obvious auction.

I won't post auctions for my system here, not only because of Mike's post but also because they are, even for me, somewhat esoteric and, knowing the OP slightly, certainly of no interest.

[ahydra]

mikeh, on 2014-January-14, 15:42, said:

To me, ahydra's sequence seems sensible until he bid 4♣, where he lost me entirely.

Opposite an invitational 3C, slam may well be on. Since you don't mind playing 5C at IMPs, it's OK to try 4C. (At MPs I would just bid 3NT.) I agree that if 1S can be a weak NT 4333 then that makes no sense, but the way I play, 1C-1x-1S promises 4-5 in the blacks, since with a BAL hand I always rebid NT (whether playing weak or strong NT), and 4414s would rebid 1H. 4C therefore looks like a good description - slam interest in clubs with a maximum for 1S. Partner should be happy to go on with his two aces, 9th trump and singleton heart.

For your auction, why 3H when opener already has a heart stop (two heart stops)? Or do you play that as pattern rather than 4SF?

ahydra

[ggwhiz]

ahydra, on 2014-January-15, 04:39, said:

For your auction, why 3H when opener already has a heart stop (two heart stops)? Or do you play that as pattern rather than 4SF?

ahydra

Not sure about anyone else but I play something similar where the 3♥ bid is convertible ie. after partner (hopefully) bids 3nt you continue with 4♣ or 4nt on suitable hands having found the ♥K in partners hand.

In this case after pard bids 4♣, 4♠ converts 3♥ into an advance cue.

[mikeh]

ahydra, on 2014-January-15, 04:39, said:

For your auction, why 3H when opener already has a heart stop (two heart stops)? Or do you play that as pattern rather than 4SF?

ahydra

If you are committing to 5♣, which a raise of 3♣ to 4♣ does, in my opinion, then it is lazy, inefficient bidding to not bid 3♥ first. Yes, at the time one bids 3♥ partner will be in doubt as to your intentions. He may well think that you are probing for 3N, on the excellent principle that in exploratory auctions below game, one's calls are usually probes for the best game rather than tries for slam. This principle isn't universal: for example, if one is in a gf major suit auction, with a 9+ fit, one rarely looks for, say, 3N However, especially in minor auctions, choice of games can be 'the' most important issue. Thus 3♥ would be initially taken as a probe for 3N, but when we take later action that shows we were intending to play clubs, 3♥ is then re-visited and becomes a cuebid.

I am not a fan of 'advance cuebids' as a general rule. I prefer, when it is economical to do so, to first set trump. However, advance cuebids work well provided that one knows, when one makes the call, that the subsequent auction will remove any and all ambiguity. Thus if partner retreats to 4♣, my red suit cue (I'd bid diamonds) makes it obvious that I was slamming in clubs, just as would my pulling 3N to 4♣.