[aleatory]

1. ♠AK92 ♥43 ♦QT43 ♣T82
2. ♠JT92 ♥43 ♦QT43 ♣T82

Partner opens 1♠ and RHO doubles.

IMPs, white vs white.
I feel like our range for 3♠ (preemptive, 4 card support) in this spot is too wide.
Hand 1 is not strong enough for Jordan 2NT.
Transfer responses are available.

[mr1303]

It is a good idea is to play transfers at the 2 level, where you can show a good raise to 2S by bidding 2H, with 2S as a rubbish raise.

But I would bid 2NT with hand 1 and 3S with hand 2.

[aguahombre]

mr1303, on 2013-December-26, 13:15, said:

It is a good idea is to play transfers at the 2 level, where you can show a good raise to 2S by bidding 2H, with 2S as a rubbish raise.

But I would bid 2NT with hand 1 and 3S with hand 2.

Yep, yep, and yep. Hand 1 with 4-card support looks like 10-12 support points to me. Hand 2 has subtractors, but I would still weak jump raise. The four-card mixed raises, we include in the 2H constructive Xfer ---not wonderful, because we neither have shown the fourth trump nor obstructed their 2S advance, but that is our choice.

[aleatory]

aguahombre, on 2013-December-26, 14:26, said:

Yep, yep, and yep. Hand 1 with 4-card support looks like 10-12 support points to me. Hand 2 has subtractors, but I would still weak jump raise. The four-card mixed raises, we include in the 2H constructive Xfer ---not wonderful, because we neither have shown the fourth trump nor obstructed their 2S advance, but that is our choice.

thanks, I wasn't sure whether to make 3S the mixed raise or to include the mixed 4 card raise in the 2H transfer.
Right now we are just blasting it to 3S with any 4 card support and 10 or fewer points or so which is obviously less than ideal.

[aguahombre]

aleatory, on 2013-December-26, 18:37, said:

thanks, I wasn't sure whether to make 3S the mixed raise or to include the mixed 4 card raise in the 2H transfer.
Right now we are just blasting it to 3S with any 4 card support and 10 or fewer points or so which is obviously less than ideal.

neither is ours, obviously. But, it seems the mixed 4-card raise is closer to "constructive" than preemptive; either way has drawbacks.

[lycier]

For me,after DBL,bid 2nt shows 9 plus points with 4 card support,but bid 3♠ directly is a preemptive raise.

[FrancesHinden]

There are three ranges of 4-card raise:
- pre-emptive
- mixed
- limit

if you are only playing two bids to cover these, you either need to exclude one of the options or you will have to make one of your bids very wide range

After 1S x we use 2NT, 3H and 3S as the three ranges (and after 1H x we use 2S, 2NT and 3H) but as you can see there are other approaches. It's not really workable to play 1S x 3S as about 0-9. One such approach is to pass on the really weak hands (or just to bid 2S). A mixed raise is more common than a pre-emptive raise.

[nigel_k]

The immediate double raise is much more effective obstructively than anything else because they cannot cue bid and they don't get a second chance after passing. So I think you want to use that as often as possible. But if the range is too wide it's hard for partner to know whether to bid one more.

I would suggest a three point range is about right and IMO you get the right balance of frequency and obstruction if you play it as 7-9 support points, so it may be as weak as J10xx x Kxxx xxxx or as good as J10xx xx Kxxx KJx. This can be a problem if partner is considering doubling them but is workable otherwise.

The 3♥ bid can then be 4-6 support points and 2NT 10+. That means the first example above is a 2NT bid. It's slightly less than a classic limit raise but partner will be aware of that and has room to make a game try.

[aleatory]

ok, here is a slightly revised structure
After 1♠ - (X):
XX: 10+ points, generally denies fit.
1NT: transfer to clubs
2♣: transfer to diamonds
2♦: transfer to hearts
2♥: transfer back to spades: 7-9 points, 3 card support
2♠: preemptive: ~4-6 points, 3-4 card support
2NT: 4 card support, 10+ points
3♣/3♦/3♥: fit jumps
3♠: mixed: 7-9 points, 4 card support
4♣/4♦/4♥: game forcing fit jumps

Now we are not taking away the 3 level with the preemptive 4 card raise. Suggestions?

[CSGibson]

aleatory, on 2013-December-28, 10:58, said:

ok, here is a slightly revised structure
After 1♠ - (X):
XX: 10+ points, generally denies fit.
1NT: transfer to clubs
2♣: transfer to diamonds
2♦: transfer to hearts
2♥: transfer back to spades: 7-9 points, 3 card support
2♠: preemptive: ~4-6 points, 3-4 card support
2NT: 4 card support, 10+ points
3♣/3♦/3♥: fit jumps
3♠: mixed: 7-9 points, 4 card support
4♣/4♦/4♥: game forcing fit jumps

Now we are not taking away the 3 level with the preemptive 4 card raise. Suggestions?

The mixed raise is more important than a specific fit jump, and I think a preemptive raise is more important also (based strictly on how much more frequent those bids are), so I would change the structure slightly so that 2N= 4 card LR+, the 3 level bid just below your major is a mixed raise, and 3M is preemptive. To compensate for the fit jump you are missing, you can always transfer into the suit at the 2 level and then support the original suit at the 3 level - that still has some preemptive effect, at least...not sure if you already have a definition for that sequence or not.