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#41 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-November-02, 09:42

 PassedOut, on 2013-November-02, 05:40, said:

Yes, Snowden has put a spotlight on what has been going on in many places: Edward Snowden papers unmask close technical cooperation and loose alliance between British, German, French, Spanish and Swedish spy agencies


Yes, we in the US have got plenty of work to do to get these intrusions under control. But we are not alone in that...


Surely, but there is still difference between development of the technological capabilities ( in case of german secret services ) and unlimited monitoring ,sucking of the data all over the globe.

Cascablanca quote? OK

This describe the situation more appriorate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crimes"!!!!! cries somebody.

US politcans should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy. Remebering their often complains about chinese spy activities in the last years. With the current knowledge the world can only laugh aboutthis dissembling.
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#42 User is online   PassedOut 

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Posted 2013-November-02, 10:58

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-02, 09:42, said:

This describe the situation more appriorate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crime"!!!!! cries somebody.

US politicians should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy.

You are right that we in the US need to clamp down on our government's eavesdropping, which appears to be more extensive than most other countries have yet been able to achieve (though not, it seems, for lack of trying). However, considering that the US got eavesdropping information about German citizens from the German government itself, the German complaints do seem just a bit hypocritical.

Suppose a schoolboy steals a compact disc and then gives a copy of it to another thief. Wouldn't it be hypocritical for the schoolboy then to throw a tantrum when he finds out that the other thief has a collection of stolen compact disks?
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#43 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2013-November-02, 11:19

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-02, 09:42, said:

Surely, but there is still difference between development of the technological capabilities ( in case of german secret services ) and unlimited monitoring ,sucking of the data all over the globe.

Casablanca quote? OK

This describe the situation more appropriate IMO : A schoolboy steals compact disc in the store while other thief cheats thousands of people cashing millions. "What a crimes"!!!!! cries somebody.

US politicians should not use the word "hypocritical" so easy. Remembering their often complains about chinese spy activities in the last years. With the current knowledge the world can only laugh about this dissembling.


In general I am not fond of the "oh, but look what you did first" defense. If we were to make comparisons, maybe Jonathan Pollard comes to mind, as he is in U.S. prison for spying for Israel. He did it the old fashioned way, copying documents. We don't like being spied on, it's reasonable to assume mothers don't either. It's naive to think others don't spy, and if other nations are not eavesdropping on Obama, I think one possible reason is that they have not been able to do it. I am very skeptical of any idea that the heads of other intelligence agencies would reject it on moral grounds.

I think that we have a common interest in discussion of electronic surveillance. The capacity will increase, not decrease. And, as operations against Iran demonstrate, it is not just surveillance. This is going to become ever more complicated, so score the debating points that you wish to score, and then there can be some thoughts about what to actually do.
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#44 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 11:05

The row over alleged spying [US on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.



Seriously?
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#45 User is online   PassedOut 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 11:22

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 11:05, said:

The row over alleged spying [US on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.

Seriously?

I guess "living memory" is a variable being used as a constant.
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#46 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 12:03

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 11:05, said:

The row over alleged spying [US on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.



Seriously?


If the life expectancy in the UK is that short, maybe that NHS isn't that good after all. ;)

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#47 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 12:15

I would suggest that, barring Clauswitz' Maxim, previous "diplomatic crises" ended up being less-than diplomatic.

Having said that, depending on what we define as Germany, we could probably list the Air Lift - theoretically it was between U.S. (and others) and (East) Germany (and OTHERS).

But yeah, that's hyperbole of overarching measure. OTOH, U.K. journalists and superinjunction-seeking lawyers are really trying to draw a line on "living memory" above Mr. Murdoch's little foible, and Messrs. A, B, etc. and Mss. C, D, etc.
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#48 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 12:42

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 11:05, said:

The row over alleged spying [US on Germany] has led to the worst diplomatic crisis between the two countries in living memory, the BBC reported.



Seriously?


Yes and No

If we consieder what german politicans said to the public opinion in last weak >>>>YES

If we consider what they de facto doing in this case, its clear >>>>NO

These are completely different "pairs of shoe"


They have to give strong statements to the german public opinion to avoid giving the impression, that they are acting like Washington's vassals.
In their real doing they try all to avoid "too much knowing" about NSA acting, not to get too close with Mr Snowdon, despite of fact he would be ready to told all to the german parliament commission. They try a hard split between saying and acting. Business as usual
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#49 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 12:59

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-06, 12:42, said:

If we consieder what german politicans said to the public opinion in last weak >>>>YES


Maybe the German politicians should think back a little further.

In fact, I wonder whether Germany has the right yet to criticise anything any country is doing.
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#50 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 13:03

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 12:59, said:

Maybe the German politicians should think back a little further.

In fact, I wonder whether Germany has the right yet to criticise anything any country is doing.


Do you mean Germany should get this right in >>>

a) 100 years
b) 250 years
c) 500 years
d) Never

after 1945?
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#51 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 13:12

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-06, 13:03, said:

Do you mean Germany should get this right in >>>

a) 100 years
b) 250 years
c) 500 years
d) Never

after 1945?


I think more than 100, but less than 250.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#52 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 13:22

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 13:12, said:

I think more than 100, but less than 250.


In the same period of time Germans will loose probably this strong feeling that they are still living at the occupied territory.
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#53 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 13:34

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-06, 13:22, said:

In the same period of time Germans will loose probably this strong feeling that they are still living at the occupied territory.


Good, then everyone will be happy.

Christ that's the last time I'll ever post a joke!
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#54 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 13:46

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 13:34, said:

Good, then everyone will be happy.

Christ that's the last time I'll ever post a joke!



Good that was just a joke by you.
Unfortunately that statement has been meant very seriousely by so many people, hard to judge.
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#55 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 14:52

 Aberlour10, on 2013-November-06, 13:46, said:

Good that was just a joke by you.
Unfortunately that statement has been meant very seriousely by so many people, hard to judge.


It wasn't a joke "by me". I just quoted a line from the news that I thought was very funny, as did the writers of Have I Got News for You. I thought that taking it seriously would be a stretch, but obviously some reporters did, because it was repeated on a number of internet news sites with no obvious tongue in anyone's cheek.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#56 User is offline   Trinidad 

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Posted 2013-November-06, 16:18

That's just too bad.

I would have really hoped that:

 Vampyr, on 2013-November-06, 12:59, said:

In fact, I wonder whether Germany has the right yet to criticise anything any country is doing.

was intended as a joke.

Rik
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#57 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2013-November-07, 08:07

 mycroft, on 2013-November-06, 12:15, said:

But yeah, that's hyperbole of overarching measure.

News reporters have to be hyperbolic. After all, we're living in a time when right-wing politicians and news commentators frequently describe the ACA as the worst law in the history of the US, i.e. worse than laws like Jim Crow.

#58 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2013-November-07, 14:42

 barmar, on 2013-November-07, 08:07, said:

News reporters have to be hyperbolic. After all, we're living in a time when right-wing politicians and news commentators frequently describe the ACA as the worst law in the history of the US, i.e. worse than laws like Jim Crow.

So the justification for hyperbole in news reporting is that somebody else did it first? What are we, five?

US Law is replete with bad examples. Some gore one ox, some another. We should be trying to get rid of all bad laws, not just the ones that gore our personal ox.

On a side note: Who was Jim Crow?
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#59 User is offline   FM75 

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Posted 2013-November-07, 17:27

Game Theory. Thomas Schelling.

I would be seriously disappointed in our government if it were not spying on all foreign governments. (Just like they are doing, to the extent that they can afford to do so.)
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#60 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2014-June-01, 07:49

From Unlocking Secrets, If Not Its Own Value by Quentin Hardy in today's NYT:

Quote

Palantir began in the mind of Peter Thiel, the Silicon Valley investor and PayPal founder. He began thinking about it in 2003, a year after he sold PayPal to eBay. It was two years after the terrorist attacks on the United States, and Mr. Thiel, a fierce libertarian, wondered if the world could be made safer without losing freedoms.

“I felt we were drifting to a place in the U.S. we’d have a lot fewer civil liberties and no real effective protection,” Mr. Thiel said. He enlisted Mr. Karp, a college friend, as well as veterans of PayPal and his investment fund.

A big fan of J.R.R. Tolkien, he named Palantir after a set of magic stones in “The Lord of the Rings” that grant powerful people the ability to see the truth from afar. The company headquarters are called the Shire, after the home of the Hobbits.

Palantir’s founders started with an idea from PayPal. At one point, PayPal was losing the equivalent of 150 percent of its revenue to stolen credit card numbers. It figured out how computers could spot activity — like a flurry of payments to a brand new account — at a global scale. The flagged actions would then be put before a PayPal employee to investigate.

Palantir’s founders thought the same approach would work for national security. Almost no one in the venture capital world agreed except the C.I.A.’s venture fund, which gave Palantir $2 million; Mr. Thiel eventually put in about $30 million of his own money. In-Q-Tel gave the founders introductions to the C.I.A. and other spy outfits.

Palantir’s first full-fledged C.I.A. job was in 2008. Mr. Karp got more work from word of mouth, and donated Palantir’s technology to cyberactivists, who mapped Russian hackers attacking the nation of Georgia in 2008. (The spyware was rumored to have found Osama bin Laden, but Palantir would not confirm or deny such jobs.)

To drum up private-sector business, Mr. Thiel called on Mr. Ovitz, whom he knew through Marc Andreessen, the former Netscape whiz kid turned venture capitalist. At first, Mr. Ovitz thought Palantir could be used in selling online ads, but the housing crisis changed his thinking. Banks had thousands of homes in foreclosure and no idea how to efficiently clear the backlog in a collapsing market.

"The idea was to pick one bank, and the rest would follow,” Mr. Ovitz said. JPMorgan was the first. Much as Palantir figured out navigating Baghdad by analyzing recent roadside attacks, satellite images and moon phases, it derived home-sale prices by looking at school enrollments, employment trends and retail sales. Data that JPMorgan thought would take two years to integrate was put into action in eight days.

JPMorgan still uses Palantir for cybersecurity, fraud detection and other work, loading half a terabyte of data onto a Palantir system each day, according to a Palantir video. A spokesman for JPMorgan said the bank uses Palantir, but would not comment on specific projects.

Morgan Stanley is another customer.

“No human can look at all the data sources at one time,” said Jim Rosenthal, Morgan Stanley’s chief operating officer. The company uses Palantir to spot money laundering and employee theft, as well as for cybersecurity.

Government clients also struggle with a data explosion. “Everything becomes more difficult, the more crime becomes global, the more state actors are involved, the more trades there are around the globe,” said Preet Bharara, United States attorney for the Southern District of New York. “It’s malpractice to have records and not search them.” He has used Palantir for several cases, including the SAC investigation.

Investors are growing restless. Mr. Karp says he hears from them nearly every day. Joe Lonsdale, a co-founder who left to form his own investment firm, still has shares in the company and has stated in online forums that Palantir will go public. But while an I.P.O. may be hard to resist forever, Mr. Thiel said in an email that Palantir “has no plans to I.P.O. in the next few years.”

Palantir is now Palo Alto’s biggest tenant after Stanford, occupying about 250,000 square feet in downtown buildings, which hold many of Palantir’s 1,500 employees. Contracts around the world have surged as everyone’s data increases in size and diversity. Mr. Karp thinks the firm can grow to 5,000 employees for its maximum effectiveness, without, he says, the possibly corrupting influence of going public.

In Tolkien’s tale, the world was saved from darkness. The Shire, though, became an industrial wasteland. Mr. Karp hopes that Palantir can save itself, along with the world.

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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