[straube]

My concern is splitting opener's range when he doesn't have sufficient strength to relay. When misfitting, I suppose he could have a range of 15-19 hcps. Of course, I'm not just looking at hcps but overall playing strength.
I think we can use the idea of a weakness signal over and over.

1C-1N
.....2C-gf relay
.....2D-weakness signal
..........2H-weakness
...............natural
.....2H-invitational, 2-fit
..........2S-gf, 3 spades
..........etc-gf
.....2S-invitational
.....2N-invitational, short hearts
.....3m-invitational
.....3H-invitational, 3-fit

1C-2D
.....2H-gf relay
.....2S-weakness signal
..........2N-weakness
.....2N-invitational
..........3C-to play
..........3D-gf, 1435
..........3H-gf, 55
..........3S-gf, 3415
..........3N-gf other
.....3C-invitational
.....3D-invitational
.....3H-invitational
.....3S-invitational

1C-2H (short spades)
.....2S-gf relay
.....2N-weakness, misfit
.....3C-weakness signal
.....3D-invitational
.....3H-invitational
.....3S-invitational

the trickiest one is 1C-2C. I'm particularly looking for help here.
.....2D-gf relay
.....2H-weakness
..........2S-weakness, 6 clubs
..........2N-weakness, 4 diamonds
.....2S-wide ranging?
.....2N-invitational
.....3C-invitational
.....3D-invitatioal
.....3H-invitaional, 6 hearts

So in this scheme responder has to check back for 5-3 heart fits. Also if opener has 6 hearts and a weak hand, he would make a weakness signal (2H) first and then rebid 3H.

[straube]

1C-1N
.....2C-gf relay
.....2D-weakness signal
..........2H-weakness
...............natural
.....2H-invitational, 2-fit, could have 5 spades
..........2S-gf, 3 spades
..........etc-gf
.....2S-6 spades, min or medium
..........3S-invite
..........etc-gf
.....2N-invitational, short hearts, could have 5 spades
..........3H-to play (we already know pd is short hearts)
..........etc-gf
.....3m-invitational
.....3H-invitational, 3-fit
.....3S-6 spades, max

1C-2C
.....2D-gf relay
.....2H-weakness signal
..........2S-weakness, 6 clubs
..........2N-weakness, 4 diamonds
.....2S-six spades, min or medium
.....2N-invitational
.....3C-invitational
.....3D-invitatioal
.....3H-invitaional, 6 hearts
.....3S-invitational, 6 spades

1C-2D
.....2H-gf relay
.....2S-weakness signal
..........2N-weakness
.....2N-invitational
..........3C-to play
..........3D-gf, 1435
..........3H-gf, 55
..........3S-gf, 3415
..........3N-gf other
.....3C-invitational
.....3D-invitational
.....3H-invitational
.....3S-invitational

1C-2H (short spades)
.....2S-gf relay
.....2N-weakness, misfit
.....3C-weakness signal
.....3D-invitational
.....3H-invitational
.....3S-invitational

[straube]

1C-2C
.....2D-gf relay
.....2H-weakness signal
..........2S-weakness
..........2N-gf, single-suited
...............3C-asking
..........3C-gf, 5/5 minors
...............3D-asking
....................3H-high short
....................3S-even short
....................3N-low short
..........3D-gf, 4D, higher
..........3H-gf, 2245
..........3S-gf, 3145
..........3N-gf, 2146 etc
.....2S-5 spades
.....2N-5 hearts, no club fit
.....3C-5 hearts, club fit
.....3D-5 hearts, 5 diamonds
.....3H-6 hearts

1C-2D
.....2H-gf relay
.....2S-weakness signal
..........2N-weakness
..........3C-gf, 5/5
...............3D-asking
....................3H-high short
....................3S-even short
....................3N-low short
..........3D-gf, higher short
..........3H-gf, 2425
..........3S-gf, 3415
..........3N-gf, 2416 etc
.....2N-5 spades
.....3C-5 spades, club fit
.....3D-5 spades, 5 diamonds
.....3H-fit

1C-1N
.....2C-gf relay
.....2D-weakness signal
..........2H-weakness
..........2S-gf, single-suited
..........2N-gf, 4 clubs
..........3C-gf, 5 diamonds
..........3D-gf, 4 diamonds, higher
..........3H-gf, 2542
..........3S-gf, 3541
..........3N-gf, 2641 etc
.....2H-spades?
.....2S-5/5 minors?
.....2N-2-fit hearts? medium?
.....3C-inv, clubs?
.....3D-inv, diamonds?
.....3H-fit

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-June-25, 07:40, said:

1C-2C
.....2D-gf relay
.....2H-weakness signal

1C-2D
.....2H-gf relay
.....2S-weakness signal
..........2N-weakness

1C-1N
.....2C-gf relay
.....2D-weakness signal

To list a few shortcomings, it seems that besides adding a large amount of complexity, the proposed modifications take away the ability to:

1) Play in 2♥ / 2♠ over the 1♣ - 2♣ in a 5-2 minimum fit
2) Play in 2♠ over 1♣ - 2♦ in a 5-2 minimum fit
3) Show a maximum with 2 card support over 1♣ - 2♣ - 2♥

It's unclear as to whether the gains are sufficient to offset the disadvantages. In other words, I concur with Adam that splitting opener's 16 (15)- 19 range any further simply isn't worth the effort.

[straube]

First off, I'm really not trying to annoy you or Adam with all of this. I think the trouble with ranges is more of a concern than you do. Hopefully you can humor me.

I find myself frequently after say 1C-2C faced with the decision of whether to borrow a point or two from your hand. When I do so I sometimes strike gold and find your hand is maximum and fitting. Sometimes we even get to slam. Other times, you have a minimum non-fitting hand and we get too high.

The other thing is that it's very nice for opener to retain captaincy. We've already invest a lot in having responder start to describe after 1C-2C (for example). It's difficult for responder to know how to continue after (say) 1C-2C, 3C. He has precious little room to describe his hand further.

So maybe I can't come up with an improvement. Maybe it's not such a big problem. But I'd like to try before giving up.

The next idea is...

1C-2C
.....2D-weakness relay
..........2H-negative
..........2S-clubs
..........2N-LL minors
..........3C-4D, higher
..........3D-2245
..........etc
.....2H-GF relay
..........2S-clubs
..........2N-LL minors
..........etc

So we obviously are +1 now which is a problem, but for only some of these semipositve/light gf hands. Not sure what opener's other rebids would be, but my guess is that they would be fairly directional.

.....2S-6 spades
.....2N-6 hearts,
.....3C-6 hearts, club fit

I see some obvious downsides here, but we retain captaincy a lot more often. For example, currently we play...

1C-2C, 2H as 5+ hearts nf

which might find 5-3 heart fits that we would otherwise miss. However, when responder DOES have extra (which is usually but not always the case) then he can't show his shape any longer. I mean opener could have 4 clubs on the side and responder might be unaware of a 10-cd club fit. That sort of thing.

[akhare]

straube, on 2013-June-25, 11:25, said:

First off, I'm really not trying to annoy you or Adam with all of this. I think the trouble with ranges is more of a concern than you do. Hopefully you can humor me.

I find myself frequently after say 1C-2C faced with the decision of whether to borrow a point or two from your hand. When I do so I sometimes strike gold and find your hand is maximum and fitting. Sometimes we even get to slam. Other times, you have a minimum non-fitting hand and we get too high.

There's no harm in considering improvements, but it's unclear that:

1) The problem happens with sufficient frequency
2) The payoff from the proposed alternative is sufficient to counter balance the disadvantages
3) The alternative improves the memory load factor and / or bidding space efficiency

A constrained deal generator greatly magnifies #1 and might even lend some credibility to #2. However, #3 is a very real concern and you will likely be hard pressed to find sufficient real life examples in which the alternative results in a clear win (in terms of actual score).

[straube]

Another way to tackle this is to look at the starting conditions. Unlike 1C-1H and 1C-1S where opener has the possibility of breaking relay with 1N, these 1C-1N and higher responses put us in a similar situation to standard symmetric with GF responses. I.e. they all offer relays at +0 and opener's minimum NT rebid is at the 2-level. We're a bit overboard and it's no wonder that we'll sometimes have uncomfortable choices.

Why not have 1C-1N+ promise 3+ QPs and maybe 6 hcps? Or perhaps 3+ QPs and worthwhile compensating distribution? Now opener can relay more frequently and we don't have to deal with the 2-3 QP step when it comes to controls.

In fact for 1C-1H and 1C-1S we could do 3+ QPs as well...without the hcp restriction. It's nice to relay any pattern, but I think we've seldom found slam opposite 2 QPs.

[straube]

I've been looking at hands just now and there's a real upside for answering light with distributional hands. I don't like my last suggestion for restricting semipositives to 3+ QPs as so many of the 2 QP hands have stories to tell. I suppose one could restrict the balanced hands to 3+ or whatever. Perhaps it just pays to inquire more often and eat those light misfitting 3Ns. I don't really see a solution for everything I'd like.